Can Somebody Explain to Me Why Lie Angle Balanced Putters Are Important?

[ChetlovesMer]

29 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

So I think it's that they can't just bend the shaft or hosel to get it to a new lie angle. They adjust that and it changes the weighting, so they have to then adjust all the weights to get it balanced again. I get the impression that it's a bit of an iterative process and they do it all in the US, so they're paying US labor costs to build it and make it work how it's supposed to. Whether you believe in the tech or not, I think that's a true statement.

I'm sure you are correct. 

[Daz_96]

The hype with the LAB Putters is something ive kept a keen eye on but i havent actually tried one... yet!!

I use a SeeMore PCB and have done for around 8 years now and it was a gamechanger for me. It was the first time i had been fitted for a putter and from then ive totally bought into the fact that the technology in the putters makes a massive difference

The only issue i have with LAB was that i did quiz them on Instagram what the difference between my PCB and a LAB Putter would be as the PCB from what i can find is just as balanced as the LAB Putters, however LAB couldnt tell me what the difference was and just said they didnt beleive in SeeMore Technology, but i wanted to know 'Why'!! 

So yeah, the tech im sure works and think if anyone hasnt gamed a putter like LAB or SeeMore where custom fitting is crucial, then you gotta give it a go!

[ChetlovesMer]

13 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

So I think it's that they can't just bend the shaft or hosel to get it to a new lie angle. They adjust that and it changes the weighting, so they have to then adjust all the weights to get it balanced again. I get the impression that it's a bit of an iterative process and they do it all in the US, so they're paying US labor costs to build it and make it work how it's supposed to. Whether you believe in the tech or not, I think that's a true statement.

I was thinking about what you suggested on this. And it's very possible its true. 
I was also thinking, why wouldn't they have a piece of software that tells them something like: "If you drill the shaft hole at x angle and the shaft is y long, but the weights in A, B and C locations at D, E and F amounts? I mean we aren't modelling anything here that isn't a known relationship? 

I've been in the manufacturing world a long time (33 years.) I've worked for and seen tons of manufacturers in the US who can handle one-piece flow with no hiccups what so ever. 

I would love to take a plant tour and offer my services to these guys. On a whim, I looked on their webpage and they do have two positions available. A fulfillment associate and a fitting representative. Both at positions are at their plant in OR. Neither of these was a lean manufacturing engineer so I moved on. 

I apologize for beating this dead horse. 

I'm not sure why the cost adder for custom built from standard parts bothers me so much. It could be because I've worked so many places that just have you build up a nomenclature which relates to a build sheet and end of line test. Which equals no cost adder for standard parts. Maybe it's because I once toured the Roles Royce plant in England and thought "I'd never feakin buy one of these cars." Maybe I've been spoiled by PXG and Mizuno, the last two places I've order custom fit irons from. They customized each club including lie angle tweaks, loft tweaks, length tweaks, weight port tweaks, etc... No cost adder. 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Daz_96 said:

It was the first time i had been fitted for a putter and from then ive totally bought into the fact that the technology in the putters makes a massive difference

What technology? There’s not much.

1 minute ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I was also thinking, why wouldn't they have a piece of software

Or a spreadsheet. 🤣😜

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I was also thinking, why wouldn't they have a piece of software that tells them something like: "If you drill the shaft hole at x angle and the shaft is y long, but the weights in A, B and C locations at D, E and F amounts? I mean we aren't modelling anything here that isn't a known relationship? 

I am sure they do have software that does that. Manufacturing and design software's are pretty sophisticated now. 

If they were to make it all custom, that would not be mass manufacturing that gets them the profits they need. Building a putter one exact way is way cheaper than having to input 300 different combinations. Also, they are selling through big box stores, so they need that one putter. That is why you do not see Edel in golf stores, it is all custom built. 

2 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

They customized each club including lie angle tweaks, loft tweaks, length tweaks, weight port tweaks, etc... No cost adder. 

Yea, but PXG is not selling their clubs in big box stores, trying to do bulk sales. They are doing everything custom. So, having multiple options available at no cost adder is a very good business decision that makes it look like they are giving you a deal. 

I am not sure Mizuno does that anymore, at least online purchases. When I go to their website, there is no option to customize loft and lie angle. They do that if you get fitted. Also, I am not sure what the price is compared to just buying a set off the shelf at the store. 

To me, it could be a perception of no adder, but is it really? Also, if Srixon is selling you clubs at the same price as a big-box store, they are not giving you a deal. So, maybe that customization is built into the price of the club there? The big box store is going to mark up on the irons in addition to what Srixon makes selling to a big box store. 

 

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

I am sure they do have software that does that. Manufacturing and design software's are pretty sophisticated now. 

If they were to make it all custom, that would not be mass manufacturing that gets them the profits they need. Building a putter one exact way is way cheaper than having to input 300 different combinations. Also, they are selling through big box stores, so they need that one putter. That is why you do not see Edel in golf stores, it is all custom built. 

Yea, but PXG is not selling their clubs in big box stores, trying to do bulk sales. They are doing everything custom. So, having multiple options available at no cost adder is a very good business decision that makes it look like they are giving you a deal. 

I am not sure Mizuno does that anymore, at least online purchases. When I go to their website, there is no option to customize loft and lie angle. They do that if you get fitted. Also, I am not sure what the price is compared to just buying a set off the shelf at the store. 

To me, it could be a perception of no adder, but is it really? Also, if Srixon is selling you clubs at the same price as a big-box store, they are not giving you a deal. So, maybe that customization is built into the price of the club there? The big box store is going to mark up on the irons in addition to what Srixon makes selling to a big box store. 

 

I see what you are saying.

I work with companies that make everything from hearing aids, to assembly cells, to fire trucks, to combines. Pretty much everything in between. I know of very few who cannot handle one-piece flow. (I'm actually struggling to think of any other than Rolls Royce. Incidentally, Rolls Royce is without a doubt the worst manufacturer I've ever worked with.) Either LAB's factory is really behind the times. (Pre-1992) or they are sticking you for ordering a custom. 

Again, if they are making their customs from special order parts that's one thing. But since they are just building from standard parts, then either their factory sucks, in which case I could help them. Or they are just charging what the market will bear. And in that case, shame on us, the consumer, for allowing it. 

A couple of good reads on the subject are "The Toyota Production System" (originally published in 1992, updated several times.) And the even better "The Toyota Way" (originally published in 2003). Any manufacturer of any product should be able to achieve one-piece flow.

     

Don't get me wrong. Even though I personally didn't really like their putter, I'm rooting for them. I've been involved with American Manufacturing since the late-80's. I got to see first hand as Toyota Principles migrated to the US. Pretty much every major American Manufacturer has adopted these principles in some form or another.... or they've gone out of business. 

LAB is an American Manufacturer and therefore I'm on their side. Which is why if they really do need an extra 110 to 150 bucks to produce a custom from standard parts, I (and others like me) can help them. 

I decided to write them an email and simply ask them if the additional cost was due to market value or cost-plus pricing. I'll let you know if they respond. 

 

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

Again, if they are making their customs from special order parts that's one thing. But since they are just building from standard parts, then either their factory sucks, in which case I could help them. Or they are just charging what the market will bear. And in that case, shame on us, the consumer, for allowing it. 

Fair points - one thing I would note, speaking as a consumer, the base model here is already very expensive. There is a (fairly large) part of me that is much more willing to pay additional customization costs if it's going to work better when the underlying product is expensive. If I'm getting a $10 putter out of a bargain bin, I'm comfortable giving it a try and if it doesn't work, then whatever - no big deal. Spend $450 plus tax and it better be good. I'd rather have something for 560 that's spot on rather than something that's 450 and not what I need. I'd also go the extra mile and pick out some of the visual customization as well - different color, different alignment lines etc. I don't necessarily see that $110 as poor value when it's already a high end and expensive piece of equipment. I don't know whether that's me being what the market will bear or that it costs them that much more to make it, but I don't particularly care either way. At the end of the day it really is just about what the market (i.e. me) will bear. 

I will also note that I don't have a LAB putter and while I am periodically tempted, I'm not going to get one until I can be sure I'm getting the one that's right for me. Short of going to Oregon, I'm not sure how that can happen either, so I will remain a spectator who occasionally pops to PGA Superstore to have a play around with one.

[GolfLug]

58 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I decided to write them an email and simply ask them if the additional cost was due to market value or cost-plus pricing. I'll let you know if they respond. 

I'm probably preaching to the choir with your background, but I'm sure most retailers worth their business salt will price it for some combination  of: delivered cost + current perceived market value + expected lower revenue for slow moving inventory + expected obsolescence. The 'market value' might be the largest component. 

Retailers with low inventory build to order for long lead times have lower obsolescence recover cost added but it really hurts the impulsive buyer market, which is big when there is all this hoopla raging. The impulsive buyer also tends to pay more. I'm guessing that LAB wont make you wait unless you want custom tweaked stuff.    

[ChetlovesMer]

8 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Fair points - one thing I would note, speaking as a consumer, the base model here is already very expensive. There is a (fairly large) part of me that is much more willing to pay additional customization costs if it's going to work better when the underlying product is expensive. If I'm getting a $10 putter out of a bargain bin, I'm comfortable giving it a try and if it doesn't work, then whatever - no big deal. Spend $450 plus tax and it better be good. I'd rather have something for 560 that's spot on rather than something that's 450 and not what I need. I'd also go the extra mile and pick out some of the visual customization as well - different color, different alignment lines etc. I don't necessarily see that $110 as poor value when it's already a high end and expensive piece of equipment. I don't know whether that's me being what the market will bear or that it costs them that much more to make it, but I don't particularly care either way. At the end of the day it really is just about what the market (i.e. me) will bear. 

I will also note that I don't have a LAB putter and while I am periodically tempted, I'm not going to get one until I can be sure I'm getting the one that's right for me. Short of going to Oregon, I'm not sure how that can happen either, so I will remain a spectator who occasionally pops to PGA Superstore to have a play around with one.

Well said. 

Er, um... Well typed... 🤷‍♂️

6 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I'm probably preaching to the choir with your background, but I'm sure most retailers worth their business salt will price it for some combination  of: delivered cost + current perceived market value + expected lower revenue for slow moving inventory + expected obsolescence. The 'market value' might be the largest component. 

Retailers with low inventory build to order for long lead times have lower obsolescence recover cost added but it really hurts the impulsive buyer market, which is big when there is all this hoopla raging. The impulsive buyer also tends to pay more. I'm guessing that LAB wont make you wait unless you want custom tweaked stuff.    

This is what I suspect as well.

I also didn't think about your point about impulse buys and the current hoopla. There are definitely a lot of folks talking about these right now. "The revealer" whether it actually proves anything or not, is clearly a great sales technique. I hear even hear the old folks at the range (am I one of those now?) talking about these. Words to the effect of "I really need to get a lie angle balance putter..." etc... 

Edited 18 hours ago by ChetlovesMer

[Clemsonfan]

I have been a big follower of this technology ever since I saw Positive Putters display at a golf show in the Revealer they invented and patented. That would have been around 2000. It made sense to me that staying target line balanced was a better way of balancing.  Early models of these putters were often too flat for me and I struggled to hole more putts. I was fascinated by all of them - Positive Putters, the Railgun, the SeeMore blades and the Backstryke. I have tried the DF1, which was great for long putts, and currently use the DF3. I am still really good at long putts with the DF3 3, having made a 90’ putt and a 34’ putt in my last two rounds. My first round with the DF3 I only had 24 putts making almost 200’ of putts. I don’t quite use the putter the way they suggest- I don’t swing harder, and only a little longer, on longer putts. All my putts are at the same tempo, or strive to be. Therefore, I am swinging harder on longer putts. I do love putting with the DF 3 and I have become much better at putting through 50-60 mm gates at home, rarely hitting the sides.

[ChetlovesMer]

8 hours ago, Clemsonfan said:

I have been a big follower of this technology ever since I saw Positive Putters display at a golf show in the Revealer they invented and patented. That would have been around 2000. It made sense to me that staying target line balanced was a better way of balancing.  Early models of these putters were often too flat for me and I struggled to hole more putts. I was fascinated by all of them - Positive Putters, the Railgun, the SeeMore blades and the Backstryke. I have tried the DF1, which was great for long putts, and currently use the DF3. I am still really good at long putts with the DF3 3, having made a 90’ putt and a 34’ putt in my last two rounds. My first round with the DF3 I only had 24 putts making almost 200’ of putts. I don’t quite use the putter the way they suggest- I don’t swing harder, and only a little longer, on longer putts. All my putts are at the same tempo, or strive to be. Therefore, I am swinging harder on longer putts. I do love putting with the DF 3 and I have become much better at putting through 50-60 mm gates at home, rarely hitting the sides.

That's great. Golf is better when you have equipment you have confidence in.

Did you get the putter fitted when you bought it? ... Did you get fit in a store or did you do their on-line fitting?

Also, do you like the feel? ... or are you not a "feel" player. 

Just curious. Congrats on your success. 

[Clemsonfan]

2 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

That's great. Golf is better when you have equipment you have confidence in.

Did you get the putter fitted when you bought it? ... Did you get fit in a store or did you do their on-line fitting?

Also, do you like the feel? ... or are you not a "feel" player. 

Just curious. Congrats on your success. 

I did get fitted in the store and my lie angle was 70*, which was what I had been using in other putters. The first putter fitting about 3 years ago for the DF1 was online at 72*, but I went a little shorter and flatter afterwards. LAB had just started offering factory seconds at 2nd Swing and I bought a DF1 there that matched my specs. I did not get used to the fatter grip.
 

I am a feel player and like how it feels when I putt. I bought mine with a steel shaft but like the Accra shaft, as well. I always think I should putt better than I do, but recognize my home course carries a 155 Slope with fast, undulating greens. Whenever I calculate my strokes gained or lost, I am usually on the positive side.

[ChetlovesMer]

8 minutes ago, Clemsonfan said:

LAB had just started offering factory seconds at 2nd Swing and I bought a DF1 there that matched my specs.

Good for you. I didn't know LAB did that. I've never purchased from 2nd Swing. Their advertisements show up on the edges of my screen all the time.

BTW - Did you say you regripped it? ... Also, if you ever get a chance post a picture or video sometime. 👍👍

[Clemsonfan]

The DF 1 was purchased at 2nd swing in 2021. Lab had all this excess inventory they sold through them at the time. Not sure if they are still doing that now. I regripped the DF1. It came with the original rubber Presse grip which was a different feel for me. I switched their 2.0 grip but it was too large.

I will work on the video. Free time is at a premium these days. Will see what I can do!

[ChetlovesMer]

1 hour ago, Clemsonfan said:

Free time is at a premium these days. 

I heard that.