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Executive Summary:  Mechanically, how do I properly perform a short putt (4' or 6')?  I know some good drills to do to evaluate my putting status (such as the ones from LSW), and to measure improvement, but I don’t even know if I’m making the move correctly.  

The Full Story: So far in 2025, I have lost an average of 2.15 strokes per round putting inside 10’, compared to a 10 handicap baseline, while the rest of my putting has cost me only .29 compared to the same baseline.   For context, and for when I find this post again in the future, as of this writing, I am a 15 handicap who has never had a handicap lower than 11.9.  

For that matter, I’ve lost an average of 1.44 strokes putting inside 10’ in 2025, compared to a 25-handicap baseline.   Obviously I know that the key to long-term improvement is in the full swing, but my short putting – inside 10’ – is really bad.   Even when I have a “successful” 4-foot drill, I’m rarely better than the bogey golfer baseline (make percent around Broadie’s statistics for such players making 4’ putts).

Yesterday morning, when standing over some 4’ practice putts, I realized I don’t know how hard to hit the short putts (as in, what would the speed be if the putt were flat and I wanted the ball to go a specific distance, not into a hole).  I don’t know how wide a stance to take.  I could experiment but it would be anecdotal at best.  I am not sure there is anything I do when I am putting that has a real reason behind it. I know not to accelerate through a putt, and I can do the pendulum and have done the days 8 & 11 drills from the 30-day practice plan (and I should do them again, and more regularly).   I'm not even really sure what I do for the longer putts, other than before a round I try to calibrate what a 10', 20', and 30' putt will be.  At least with those, when I set up to hit, I'm looking for a specific speed (as I believe I have bead right, and I will have read the putt already and aligned myself for where I want it to start)

I’m really at a loss for where to go from here.  I want to confront this head-on and, not necessarily for next month, but I’d like to at least be a competent putter for my handicap level (or at least for closer to my handicap level) in the not-too-distant future.  My longer putting statistics tell me I can. 

I practice inside 10’ for most of my putting practice.  While I don’t track exactly, I believe I practice putting a little more than someone without a glaring weakness should by the percent.  I do pretty well on the ruler drill from LSW, although I’m not really sure what speed I’m hitting when I do that:  the ball pretty much rolls out, across some carpet and hits a pillow.  I took an AimPoint class and I’m not usually surprised by the direction a longer putt I miss goes.  My putter is an Edel (fit for me, over a decade ago) and I have no plans to swap it out.   I have putted well in the past, although I don’t think I have any pre-2022 data and late that year was the start of a 30-month or so period of my life where I didn’t get to play much.  I even completed an around-the-world at 3’ (12 putts, more or less equally spaced around the hole, in a row) a month or so ago.

I’ve gone to practice quite a bit, sometimes with success during practice and sometimes without.  However, I’m starting to wonder if I’m the putting version of the 25 handicap who goes to the range and hits a large bucket of balls trying to cure his slice, thinking he solved it when he randomly hits two straight shots in a row.  Maybe I’m not really practicing, I’m just hitting putts and counting things and fooling myself.  I don’t think I’m getting better at what the aim is.  Maybe I’m reinforcing a bad habit. 

I have read parts of Stan Utley’s book on putting quite a bit lately, both when I was picking up the clubs again at the start of the year and while this is bugging me (and in between).  The Art of Scoring’s putting section is strategy, not mechanical instruction.  A lot of The Art of Putting isn’t mechanical and isn’t broken down by distance.  I think I grip my putter and take my stance in the manner from his book.

I refuse to go down the YouTube rabbit hole – for the most part, I can’t distinguish good advice from bad unless I know more about the source, and I think if I were to just search for putting tips on YouTube (or elsewhere on the internet, for that matter), I’m just as likely to make the situation worse.   And we all know how much bad putting advice is online (especially if you ask someone how much a typical player should practice it, but that’s besides the point here).  

So, trusted friends on TST, how do I learn how to make short putts?  I trust information here to be far more credible than the general internet.  

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Posted

You can post putting stuff on Skillest, too, you know. 🙂 

(I'll reply here later tonight or tomorrow.)

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted
4 hours ago, iacas said:

You can post putting stuff on Skillest, too, you know. 🙂 

(I'll reply here later tonight or tomorrow.)

Thanks.  Somehow that slipped my mind as something I could do.  Am I looking for the usual camera angles for this?  And this is probably something that should be taken on a real putting green, not on the carpet at home, I'm guessing?

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Posted
40 minutes ago, Shindig said:

Thanks.  Somehow that slipped my mind as something I could do.  Am I looking for the usual camera angles for this?  And this is probably something that should be taken on a real putting green, not on the carpet at home, I'm guessing?

Yes, on a real putting green.

7 hours ago, Shindig said:

Executive Summary: Mechanically, how do I properly perform a short putt (4' or 6')?  I know some good drills to do to evaluate my putting status (such as the ones from LSW), and to measure improvement, but I don’t even know if I’m making the move correctly.

The move is less important than whether you can produce the right line. At this distance, putts don't break much, so you're just trying to hit the line and let the putt hit the hole, ideally near the middle. Face angle dominates here.

7 hours ago, Shindig said:

For that matter, I’ve lost an average of 1.44 strokes putting inside 10’ in 2025, compared to a 25-handicap baseline.

That's not good.

7 hours ago, Shindig said:

I’m really at a loss for where to go from here. I want to confront this head-on and, not necessarily for next month, but I’d like to at least be a competent putter for my handicap level (or at least for closer to my handicap level) in the not-too-distant future.  My longer putting statistics tell me I can.

How do you hit an 18" putt? Do you just go up and give it a little rap? 4' aren't too different. The line matters. The speed… not so much.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Posted
47 minutes ago, iacas said:

The move is less important than whether you can produce the right line. At this distance, putts don't break much, so you're just trying to hit the line and let the putt hit the hole, ideally near the middle. Face angle dominates here.

 

How do you hit an 18" putt? Do you just go up and give it a little rap? 4' aren't too different. The line matters. The speed… not so much.

First, thank you for taking the time to write this.  I'll get video next time I'm able to get to a putting green and I will send it for Skillest. 

If I understand the above parts, I can set up and try to hit straight (ish?  I wonder if I'm also bad at reading short putts.  They don't break much, am I likely to encounter many where I'll aim outside the hole?) putts at a not-ridiculous speed (e.g., don't leave it short, don't hit one that will go 2+ feet by), that's enough basics for me to make some progress on 4' putts?

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Posted

Is there any sort of consistent pattern of where you're missing the putts? Like is it always low side, or always left or right? Do you struggle when there's any break in a short putt? I think you probably want to figure out why you're missing them if you can. My first guess as to what the issue is would be that you're perhaps not aiming it where you think you're aiming it. 

Holing short putts is about lining them up right and then starting it on the line you want to. You can get a metal yardstick and try to putt down it. If you're able to consistently roll the ball off the end of the yardstick (as opposed to the side), then you should be plenty good enough to not be losing strokes to a 25-handicap baseline. I'd also suggest finding ways to test that with fewer and fewer crutches. For example, the yardstick has a squared end, which will help you line up the putter square. Once you can do that, you can go to the putting green with a string line or a chalk line, find a straight putt and use the chalk line or string line to help. If you can do that consistently, then try it without the chalk/string line and just find a straight 5 foot putt and see how it goes. Then find some breaking ones and see how you handle left to right and right to left breakers. 

That lot and have someone who knows what they're doing take a look at it like @iacas said 🙂

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Posted

I'll let others talk about potential mechanical stuff. What I'll say is that I actually found not going to the range better for dialing in short putt line control. I just found a part of my basement (finished before we bought the house, very thin carpet over concrete floor) that didn't break. I work from my basement, so I just set up two alignment sticks end to end, laid a cup down on its side at the end, and kept a ball and my putter leaning against the wall. I'd just hit 10 putts many times per day, where I had to hit it almost perfectly on line along the alignment sticks to get it in the laid down cup. Doing that over and over for a few weeks got me to a point where I was comfortable standing over a 4 footer, feeling confident that I was lined up right just from having lined up over and over again in my basement 100% certain that I was lined up correctly. I haven't been able to play nearly as much as I'd like this year, and while I haven't had any hot putting rounds when I have gotten to play, I've been able to stay steady with decent putting, 2.0 strokes lost per round to scratch, and 2.0 average putts per GIR.

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Matt

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Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Posted
3 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

Is there any sort of consistent pattern of where you're missing the putts? Like is it always low side, or always left or right? Do you struggle when there's any break in a short putt? I think you probably want to figure out why you're missing them if you can. My first guess as to what the issue is would be that you're perhaps not aiming it where you think you're aiming it. 

Holing short putts is about lining them up right and then starting it on the line you want to. You can get a metal yardstick and try to putt down it. If you're able to consistently roll the ball off the end of the yardstick (as opposed to the side), then you should be plenty good enough to not be losing strokes to a 25-handicap baseline. I'd also suggest finding ways to test that with fewer and fewer crutches. For example, the yardstick has a squared end, which will help you line up the putter square. Once you can do that, you can go to the putting green with a string line or a chalk line, find a straight putt and use the chalk line or string line to help. If you can do that consistently, then try it without the chalk/string line and just find a straight 5 foot putt and see how it goes. Then find some breaking ones and see how you handle left to right and right to left breakers. 

That lot and have someone who knows what they're doing take a look at it like @iacas said 🙂

Thank you!  I am able to do the metal yardstick drill;  I didn't think about that the yardstick has a squared end and may be helping me line it up.  I avoid using a line on a ball on the course (and my putter does not have a line on it), in part because (this would have been over a decade ago when I got fit for my putter), I think it was causing me to line up incorrectly.  I forget if it was the ball or the putter that did that.  

I've set up string lines before for distance control practice, but haven't set that up for short putts.  That sounds like something I should do.  I'm not sure how I'd set up a chalk line (or how it'd be perceived here), but that sounds like worth trying too.

And I am definitely going to get some video and send it to Erik on Skillest!  

2 hours ago, mdl said:

I'll let others talk about potential mechanical stuff. What I'll say is that I actually found not going to the range better for dialing in short putt line control. I just found a part of my basement (finished before we bought the house, very thin carpet over concrete floor) that didn't break. I work from my basement, so I just set up two alignment sticks end to end, laid a cup down on its side at the end, and kept a ball and my putter leaning against the wall. I'd just hit 10 putts many times per day, where I had to hit it almost perfectly on line along the alignment sticks to get it in the laid down cup. Doing that over and over for a few weeks got me to a point where I was comfortable standing over a 4 footer, feeling confident that I was lined up right just from having lined up over and over again in my basement 100% certain that I was lined up correctly. I haven't been able to play nearly as much as I'd like this year, and while I haven't had any hot putting rounds when I have gotten to play, I've been able to stay steady with decent putting, 2.0 strokes lost per round to scratch, and 2.0 average putts per GIR.

Thank you!  I don't quite have that basement setup, but I do have some thin carpet in the same room as my hitting mat and alignment sticks.  I'm having trouble picturing the drill you're describing, but I do like the idea of regularly just hitting a few putts.  Can I get a bit more description of how you set yours up?

When I work from home, that's the adjacent room, and just as I regularly sneak over there and take 15 minutes to hit a few balls with my latest priority piece, I should spend some time doing that for putting too. 

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Posted
12 hours ago, Shindig said:

I've set up string lines before for distance control practice, but haven't set that up for short putts.  That sounds like something I should do.  I'm not sure how I'd set up a chalk line (or how it'd be perceived here), but that sounds like worth trying too.

If you already have the string line don't worry about the chalk line. The chalk line is basically a reel of thread inside a canister that has chalk in it. You stick one end in the ground just past the hole and then bring the line out of the canister and put it on the ground, then you flick it and it leaves the line of chalk on the ground, so you have a straight line to the hole that's marked in chalk on the grass. I've never known anyone to complain about someone using one. I'd guess most people would appreciate that it's there as long as you actually chose a straight putt. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Ty_Webb said:

as long as you actually chose a straight putt. 

I saw a string line down pointing at the hole once on a 4' putt that was a cup out. 🙂

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Posted
On 10/13/2025 at 3:43 PM, Shindig said:

Thank you!  I don't quite have that basement setup, but I do have some thin carpet in the same room as my hitting mat and alignment sticks.  I'm having trouble picturing the drill you're describing, but I do like the idea of regularly just hitting a few putts.  Can I get a bit more description of how you set yours up?

image.png

 

This is two alignment sticks, a cup on its side, a golf ball, and where you're standing. The key for me was that with the alignment sticks and the flat floor, I knew exactly how far I had to set up the ball from the stick to aligned perfectly with the middle of the cup. So Then if I hit the ball perfectly along the line of the stick that it was guaranteed to go perfectly into the center of the cup. Takes all the guesswork out and you can really dial in: 1) knowing what setting up perfectly aimed where you want feels and looks like, 2) starting the ball super consistently along your aiming line. 

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Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Posted
15 minutes ago, mdl said:

image.png

 

This is two alignment sticks, a cup on its side, a golf ball, and where you're standing. The key for me was that with the alignment sticks and the flat floor, I knew exactly how far I had to set up the ball from the stick to aligned perfectly with the middle of the cup. So Then if I hit the ball perfectly along the line of the stick that it was guaranteed to go perfectly into the center of the cup. Takes all the guesswork out and you can really dial in: 1) knowing what setting up perfectly aimed where you want feels and looks like, 2) starting the ball super consistently along your aiming line. 

That's fantastic;  thank you.  I'll set up something like that at home later this week.  

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Posted

Shindig,

It sounds like you’ve already done a lot of thoughtful work identifying the issue, so now it’s about simplifying and rebuilding trust in your stroke. For short putts, think square and repeatable rather than perfect and powerful. Keep your setup consistent: eyes just inside the ball, stance about shoulder-width, and weight balanced evenly. From there, make a small rocking motion with your shoulders, letting your arms and hands stay quiet. The goal is a smooth, pendulum-like stroke that keeps the putter face square through impact.

For speed, imagine a flat putt that would finish about a foot past the hole if it missed. (Maybe Ladder Drills for practice???) That gives you a confident roll without the dreaded jab or decel. Practice short putts by separating face control and speed control, use a chalk line or alignment stick for direction, and a short “ladder” of tees or coins to groove consistent roll-out distances. And remember: if you start missing again, don’t panic, even the pros occasionally make their three-footers look like trick shots.

Keep the stroke simple, trust your setup, and let the hole get in the way. 😄


Posted
13 hours ago, Shindig said:

That's fantastic;  thank you.  I'll set up something like that at home later this week.  

One other thing that might be specific to me but might help so I'll throw it in there. The biggest regression I've had took a while to figure but in the end I found was because I'd let my hands drift forward, towards the target. That shifted my aim to the right, but then it would feel weird versus the eye line I'd learned, and I'd bounce between pushing and pulling lots of putts. When I recentered my hands suddenly I started putting solidly again. So maybe a general thing about making sure you're cognizant of the setup pieces you're dialing in so you're able to keep an eye on them down the line.

Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Posted
2 hours ago, mdl said:

One other thing that might be specific to me but might help so I'll throw it in there. The biggest regression I've had took a while to figure but in the end I found was because I'd let my hands drift forward, towards the target. That shifted my aim to the right, but then it would feel weird versus the eye line I'd learned, and I'd bounce between pushing and pulling lots of putts. When I recentered my hands suddenly I started putting solidly again. So maybe a general thing about making sure you're cognizant of the setup pieces you're dialing in so you're able to keep an eye on them down the line.

I'm going to give this some thought when I get home.  This morning, I set up the drill (I logged in during lunch to post on the 5 minutes thread about that) and I missed several, but all to the right.  I wonder if that's what's going on.  Either way, I can already see the usefulness of this drill and setup and will be doing it quite a bit.  Thank you again!

2 hours ago, 2-PuttMcGee said:

Shindig,

It sounds like you’ve already done a lot of thoughtful work identifying the issue, so now it’s about simplifying and rebuilding trust in your stroke. For short putts, think square and repeatable rather than perfect and powerful. Keep your setup consistent: eyes just inside the ball, stance about shoulder-width, and weight balanced evenly. From there, make a small rocking motion with your shoulders, letting your arms and hands stay quiet. The goal is a smooth, pendulum-like stroke that keeps the putter face square through impact.

For speed, imagine a flat putt that would finish about a foot past the hole if it missed. (Maybe Ladder Drills for practice???) That gives you a confident roll without the dreaded jab or decel. Practice short putts by separating face control and speed control, use a chalk line or alignment stick for direction, and a short “ladder” of tees or coins to groove consistent roll-out distances. And remember: if you start missing again, don’t panic, even the pros occasionally make their three-footers look like trick shots.

Keep the stroke simple, trust your setup, and let the hole get in the way. 😄

Thank you.  The foot past the hole sounds good too -- I think there was a segment of Every Stroke Counts where Broadie observed that tour players tend to center their putting aim just past the cup.  I should re-read that instead of going from memory for it.  

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Posted
On 10/14/2025 at 9:01 PM, mdl said:

image.png

 

This is two alignment sticks, a cup on its side, a golf ball, and where you're standing. The key for me was that with the alignment sticks and the flat floor, I knew exactly how far I had to set up the ball from the stick to aligned perfectly with the middle of the cup. So Then if I hit the ball perfectly along the line of the stick that it was guaranteed to go perfectly into the center of the cup. Takes all the guesswork out and you can really dial in: 1) knowing what setting up perfectly aimed where you want feels and looks like, 2) starting the ball super consistently along your aiming line. 

One other quick question that dawned on me after practice this morning:  When I set up this drill, I have been purposefully placing the ball so it's straight along the line parallel to the alignment sticks to the middle of the cup.  Is that what I am supposed to be doing or am I making this artificially easy on myself by doing so?

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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Posted
On 10/17/2025 at 10:22 AM, Shindig said:

One other quick question that dawned on me after practice this morning:  When I set up this drill, I have been purposefully placing the ball so it's straight along the line parallel to the alignment sticks to the middle of the cup.  Is that what I am supposed to be doing or am I making this artificially easy on myself by doing so?

That's the whole point! My goal with the setup was to try to guarantee that if I lined up my face perpendicular to the sticks, then if I putted correctly it was guaranteed to travel parallel to the sticks and end up in the cup. Dial in what perfect setup feels like and then drill starting as close to my aiming line as I can.

Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Posted
55 minutes ago, mdl said:

That's the whole point! My goal with the setup was to try to guarantee that if I lined up my face perpendicular to the sticks, then if I putted correctly it was guaranteed to travel parallel to the sticks and end up in the cup. Dial in what perfect setup feels like and then drill starting as close to my aiming line as I can.

Awesome, thank you!  I can already tell this is going to help me quite a bit.  Thanks for the drill and for the follow up advice, I appreciate it!

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-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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    • Day 430 - 2025-12-04 Slow motion backswings (with chippy shots) with AlmostGolf balls.
    • Day 24 (4 Dec 25) - Spent about an hour working with the new 55° wedge in the backyard.  Kept all shots to under 20yds.  Big focus - not decelerating thru downswing and keeping speed up with abbreviated backswing.  Nothing like hitting a low flighted chip with plenty of check spin and then purpose to float a pitch of similar distance.  
    • Day 114 12-4 Put some work in on backswing, moving the hips correctly, then feeling over to lead side. Didn't hit any balls was just focused on keeping flowy and moving better. I'll probably do another session tonight and add in some foam balls.
    • Didn't say anything about your understanding in my post.  Well, if you are not insisting on alignment with logic of the WHS, then no.  Try me/us. What do you want from us then?? You are not making sense. You come here and post in an open forum, question a system that is constructed with logic, without using any of your own and then give us a small window of your personal experience to support your narrative which at first sight does not makes sense.  I mean, if you are a point of swearing then I would suggest you cut your losses and humor a more gullible audience elsewhere. Good heavens.
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