Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[PingZing2]

i dont fully understand/comprehend the idea of working the ball nor do i want to because quite frankly im not playing for money. yea my golf game is important to me, and i want to be a good player. ideally shooting in the low 80's. but irons wont do that for you.

I have read these forums for awhile and just never got around to registering. However, first off there are alot of people on these forums that want to play the best they possibly can and don't want to just settle for anything.

I hope you don't take offense to this but you preach a lot on that which you do not know. Yes those irons you have are good irons for the people that want to go to the course for the weekend and play a decent round but don't want to or can't put in the time to become a good ball striker. And YES players irons will help get you to become a better then average player, short game is important, and driving is important. That being said I hit more full or 3/4 irons in a round then I do wedge shots. Yes these players irons don't do well if you chunk the ball but people that use them with success are fairly dedicated to the game and have far better then average ball striking. A person can understand what the difference is in a good swing and a get you by swing (which you can have with the game improvement irons). Obviousily if you can't work the ball at this point you don't understand the importance of it. Hopefully you will someday, I just hope you keep an open mind about it. ETA - Players irons don't necessarily have to be blades. eg. MP-60

[mRogers88]

does anyone follow jazz?

-the most influential and skilled player every to pick up a saxophone, Charlie Parker, went a great amount of time playing on a plastic saxophone and it didnt change anything about the way he played saxophone..

the same concept holds true to "big boy" irons vs "not so big boy" irons.

[Mulligan26]

No it doesn't, players irons are much less forgiving than game improvement irons. You might "hit the hell" out of your big bertha's; but I bet if you put a blade or a forged CB iron in your hands you might find yourself not "hitting the hell" out of them. It takes much more skill to handle "big boy" irons under pressure so don't try and belittle them just because you probably haven't used them or have the intention to do so.

[muskegman]

does anyone follow jazz?

No, but as a sax player and forged iron player I enjoy the feel of the real thing. Actually, the plastic saxophone argument is a great one against game-improvement clubs. For example, every drummer I've played with prefers an acoustic set over an electronic one. I prefer a Selmer saxophone over a "Casio" any day of the week. As a guitarist I much prefer a fine wooden guitar over a composite one because it provides more feel and richer tone.

All musicians like instruments that resonate more which is basically what a players club does for you. Brilliant illustration! Having said that, if you enjoy game improvement clubs, keep playing them. You have your reasons, I have mine.

[lamebums]

I have cavity back irons, and one of my buddies has blades. If he and I both hit in the sweet spot, we'll both be smack out in the middle of the fairway. However, if we both catch the toe of our clubs, we'll both be off to the right. He will be a hell of a lot further off to the right, however.

[mRogers88]

No it doesn't, players irons are much less forgiving than game improvement irons. You might "hit the hell" out of your big bertha's; but I bet if you put a blade or a forged CB iron in your hands you might find yourself not "hitting the hell" out of them. It takes much more skill to handle "big boy" irons under pressure so don't try and belittle them just because you probably haven't used them or have the intention to do so.

i wasnt belittling players irons. quite frankly i was doing the opposite. what i meant by the jazz post was this: as i have mentioned Charlie Parker is one of hte greatest sax players of his era, and possibly all time (much debate has ensued over that fact however). i believe his horn of choice was a "king". a relatively well known horn. a "players" horn. most horns are made of metal. theye produce the best sound. he played on a plastic horn for quite some time. there is hardly such thing AS a plastic horn. supposedly the greatest hindrance to his playing ability. but its quite the opposite. he was the same player. so with that being said. if you a great golfer, your a great golfer. yes, "players" irons may or may not improve and enhance your game to the next level. just as a "players horn" will enhance your playing and take you to the next level. but by no means will 'game improvement' irons hinder your game. the player you are defines how you hit the club. not the club. (oh and for the record i enjoy Kielworth and Yanagisawa horns.. meyer 6m mouthpiece ) haha

[AMGfan]

I need all the forgiveness I can get since I have more margin of error in my swing. My misses are less off line with the game improvement irons. A better player will almost always trump me regardless of what irons he/she has...I played with guy about a month ago and he had an old set of Titliest blades that must have been at least 10 yrs old and a driver the size of a 3wood head and he still wumped me. His swing was just better and more consistent than mine...

The only reason he said he would change his set is to increase his overall distance, but since he wasn't pro material and his discretionary cash was limited he was not motivated to do so...a player is a player no matter what club they have in their hands.

[glebert]

I can admit that I am a high handicapper, or would be if I ever established one. I found that my iron play was the weakest part of my game. I had no control left to right. So back in December I picked up some blades and vowed to play blades until April and practice regularly (2-3 times a week). They have never really added any strokes to my score, my average is about the same. What I love about them is that they tell me the truth. How can I get better if my clubs are masking my swing flaws? There are more important things than the score I shoot today.

For what's it worth, I believe my control is getting better. I am going to keep playing my Apex Grinds until the end of the month, and then go and and pull my two sets of cavity backs out of storage and make a decision, but I can pretty much guarantee that my Adams GT3s are going to get traded in. My swing got incredibly sloppy while using them.

[PingZing2]

I need all the forgiveness I can get since I have more margin of error in my swing. My misses are less off line with the game improvement irons.

I have never seen you play golf so this may not apply to you. But I have seen a few people about where you are at high single digit handicaps or low double digit. For most people when you reach this area the fundamentals are there, just small things affect your score. One day you may go out and shot around par then the next it may be mid to high 80's. Mostly depending on how your swing is that particular day.

I would bet that if you decrease your margin of error you will shave strokes off your handicap. I am not saying go out and buy a set of blades, but I would recommend looking around for a couple quality used players irons 5,7,9 or something like that (or borrow some), go to the range and hit them for awhile. Once the majority of your shots are hitting your club where they are suppose to, give the CGB's a shot. Most are amazed at the consistency they will have with cavity backs after that.

[iacas]

but by no means will 'game improvement' irons hinder your game. the player you are defines how you hit the club. not the club.

That's not true. Last year I played awhile with the r7 TP irons. They're as "forgiving" an irons as I've played in the past x years. After an initial run where I was making birdies after bad swings because the clubs helped me, my game slowly started to fall apart. Why? Because I couldn't tell the difference between perfect contact and so-so contact. So then so-so contact slipped to not-so-great contact, and on down the line.

"Tougher" irons or "players" irons (forged, muscleback, etc.) help my game. Cavity-back "game improvement" irons only temporarily improve my game.

[mRogers88]

not all cavity backs are game improvement.

you guys are making it seem like a game improvement iron masks your flaws. that is 100% not the case. if you toe it, thin it, thick it, pull it, push it, come around the inside, come from the outside etc. you will see it. its not like every time a golfball even touches the clubface it goes shooting out perfectly straight.

lol im not like, trying to "sell" products here but i think some of you are being close minded and ignorant to the fact that your equipment has little to do with your game.

how was ben hogan one of the greatest golfers of all time?
-and i knoooowww some smarta** is going to say "well he had bladed irons". maybe true. but they didnt know about swing plane, and weighted clubs and shafts and grips and golfballs nearly like we do today.

[babywax]

The point everyone is trying to make, is that player's irons in general will force you to become a better player because you won't be able to make bad contact nearly as often.
If you hit the sweet spot every time with game improvement irons, and you can shape the ball, it's not going to make a big difference. However, if you do use player's irons you don't really have the option of missing, and as such they encourage better contact. Game improvement irons tend to mask the shots that aren't as solid, and as such can allow you to slip off your game a little.

[iacas]

you guys are making it seem like a game improvement iron masks your flaws.

That's what they do. That's what they're designed to do.

lol im not like, trying to "sell" products here but i think some of you are being close minded and ignorant to the fact that your equipment has little to do with your game.

Bullpuckey! When have you ever seen a good craftsman that didn't care about his tools? Good craftsman (be they photographers, artists, architects, golfers, etc.) care about their tools.

how was ben hogan one of the greatest golfers of all time?

That's not even germane to the topic. Give Ben Hogan a mixed set of off-the-rack clubs and he wouldn't have played as well as he did. No doubt about it.

The clubs don't have to know about the swing plane, but Ben Hogan sure as heck knew about is clubs!!! This sums it up pretty well:

The point everyone is trying to make, is that player's irons in general will force you to become a better player because you won't be able to make bad contact nearly as often.

Yup.

[ragontona]

I don't know how long this thread's been going on, but I'm considering making a switch to some ultra-game improvement irons.

After years of playing with forged Titleist cavity backs of some sort, I'm thinking about making a switch to some Nike Ignite irons. Why? Because I just don't get out much anymore. If I'm lucky, I'll play 8-10 rounds this year.

I'm thinking I wanna make the game as easy on me as I can for these sporadic rounds, because frankly, I'm not gonna have the time to devote to the game.

I understand that this'll lead to a sloppier swing, etc. But heck, I'm paying to play golf -- I might as well enjoy it with some forgiving equipment.

[mRogers88]

it still just seems completely retarded.

i keep going back to music and it has nothing to do with golf, but i feel the music training ive recieved over the years is one of hte best life lessons ive ever had the pleasure of experiencing.

why would it make sense, to play/use a product that is way over your head? unless maryland is in another universe, I am pretty sure working your way up is the way to get better. Not putting better products in your hands.

a Nikon D-80 wont make you any better of a photographer than a Nikon coolpix point and shoot. You need to know how to use the lenses and the ligting and techniques and angles that will produce a quality photograph. And even at that, a great photographer can take a breathtaking photograph with a 6megapixel point and shoot.

a gibson les paul will certainly help and enhance a great guitar players skills and abilities. but put a gibson les paul in the hands of an amateur hes still going to be an amateur and will always be an amatuer untill he practices and learns chords and scales and transtions within the music hes playing.

sure a corvette with a manual transmission is fast as hell. what if you cant drive a stick?? the corvette isnt going to teach you.

people are arguing the fact that players irons are within the same ballpark. if your a shitty player, you will continue to be a shitty player no matter what clubs you use and how long you use them. and to say otherwise is niave and pointless. the only thing a players iron will give you that is different than any other iron is room to progress. but that doesnt neccesarily say one wont progress with a cavity backed/game improvement iron.

the title game improvement is actually a HUGE misnomer. because though the club may be more forgiving, the ball goes where you aim it. and if you come over the top you will slice the ball, and if you come from the inside you will infact hit a fade. putting the clubs in your hand wont do anything different for your game. it just makes mis hits towards the toe or heel less wasted.

the idea of a 'players' iron vs. a 'game improvement' is the same idea as like.. commission vs. salary.

commission being a players iron, gives you what you put into your work. plain and simple.

salary, you work, regardless of good/bad/poor/average work, you will always get the same outcome.

but with that commission job, if you dont work your ass off you sure as hell ain't gettn paid.

[babywax]

I don't think you're coming from the same angle.

The person who isn't a low handicapper who gets a players iron is looking for clubs that will let him know whenever he makes a mistake, no matter what. This, for some people, helps them to get better faster.

Of course you can get better, and even to the level of a professional player with game improvement irons. It's a difference in how someone wants to do it, and what players irons do is force you to get better. Game improvement irons don't do that as much, so for the person who is basing their swing upon results won't necessarily know if he hits it a little off the sweet spot.

That's the idea, that with a players iron you know when you make a mistake and exactly how you made it, thereby improving your swing. They don't directly make you better, but they do require you to get better.

[mRogers88]

makes sense.

[cyclistgolfer]

What I havent heard anybody say in this thread is fitting...correct me if I am wrong but, getting properly fitted is probably one of the most important things you need to do when choosing clubs. To this point, most game improvement irons can not be bent the way a good forged iron can.

I purchased a set of Titliest 690 cb about 8 months ago all standard off the rack. My game suffered due to one, from playing at least once a week I dropped my playing time to once every couple of weeks and 2 I did not get the irons fitted to me. BTW I am a 19 handicap who vows to improve and do what ever it takes. 2 weeks ago I had my irons properly fitted to my swing, 5 whopping degrees flatter than when I bought it (try that with a game improvement iron). This week I beat all 3 of my golfing buddies who has been playing for at least a decade before I ever picked up a club.

I think that a properly fitted players club will is the way to go