Poll: Equitable Stroke Control?

[DJYoshi]

wasn't ESC brought into play to control overall scores and not really harm the player's handicap for blow up holes? I shot a freakin 92 the other day and it did NOTHING to my handicap. I didn't use ESC. I had 2 snowmen. and it still didn't raise it up

[Dent]

wasn't ESC brought into play to control overall scores and not really harm the player's handicap for blow up holes? I shot a freakin 92 the other day and it did NOTHING to my handicap. I didn't use ESC. I had 2 snowmen. and it still didn't raise it up

It's because it was one of your 10 worst scores, which elimates another bad score I think, so It really can do nothing to your handicap because remember, its based on your 10

best scores. If you actually think you had a good day, and post a good score, If It doesnt beat some differentials on your 10 best scores list, it can go up then.

[MrSandman]

wasn't ESC brought into play to control overall scores and not really harm the player's handicap for blow up holes? I shot a freakin 92 the other day and it did NOTHING to my handicap. I didn't use ESC. I had 2 snowmen. and it still didn't raise it up

That is because the 92 likely was not in your 10 best out of your 20 most recent.

Outside of your 10 best, it doesn't matter if you post a 102, 110, or 90. They are all just viewed as nothing for your handicap. It is the 80 that you shoot with an 8 on the card, that should be a 78 if you followed the ESC rules, that is the subject of equitable stroke control.

[DJYoshi]

That is because the 92 likely was not in your 10 best out of your 20 most recent.

sandman, would the 10 worst of your 20 most recent go towards your anti handicap?

and for esc, couldn't a worse player become a better just by assuming the esc for any given hole? I believe most of the time for me, I'm not allowed more than 7 strokes on any given hole...most of the time...considering the course handicap. I can see how it's supposed to be for sandbaggers in tournaments... but i was just looking at it like it's a way of copping out and achieving a "vanity" score that's lower than your real HC b/c of not using ESC... but I do understand its reasoning behind it.

[MrSandman]

Anti-Handicap is more of a theoretical statistic than anything with any value. Anti-handicap is not used for anything, except for a player's own self evaluation. Nobody cares about your anti-handicap except for you and somebody you might discuss it with. It is never used for a tournament, GHIN does not even track it for you.


I don't know how much a poor player could use ESC on every hole and become a better player. A poor player should be using ESC to begin with. But if you are a 25 handicap, then the highest you can take is an 8. If you take 18 8's on your card, you shoot a 144, which would not improve your handicap.

[Craig Mac]

I didn't even know about ESC until I started using this forum 6-7 months ago. I understand it's purpose(sort of) of keeping blow up holes from effecting your handi. I guess I am just use to holing out and writing down what I made. I have been entering my rounds in to Scorecard and I know that uses ESC. My handi is based on some other software I was using and I decided to stick with that number until I get 20 rounds in to Scorecard(currently 16 rounds). I am assuming that my other software is not using ESC and that would explain why my Scorecard handi is slightly lower(barely single digits). Before you run off and accuse me of sandbagging, I don't play in any tournaments, just for fun. It will be a big goal for me when I get 20 rounds in Scorecard and if it is still in single digits. Hopefully it will be if I can avoid some of the upper 80's low 90's I have posted in my last few rounds.

[MrSandman]

Craig, the upper 80's, low 90's, aren't going to mean jack for your handicap. Heck, you can post 5 scores in the 100's and still be a single digit handicap. Only your 10 best scores matter, how low do you go when you are playing well. Your bad rounds don't count, they are mearly place holders, taking up a spot in your 20 most recent.

If you shoot around even par half the time, and you shoot a 100 the other half the time, you are a scratch golfer. Your 10 best are scratch caliber, and it does not matter what the other 10 rounds are.

[golf_junkie27]

Golf Junkie, hate to break it to you, but if you're putting down 8's, 9's and 10's on your card, you are by definition a sandbagger. ESC is not designed to provide you with any services. ESC is designed to protect the field from sandbaggers. Even if you are not intentionally sandbagging, not using ESC is a blatant form of sandbagging and is just as bad as somebody posting artificially high scores.

So, by keeping an honest score I am now a "sandbagger?" I'm not using that to intentionally keep my handicap higher or to cheat.

I'll give you an example. Last time out, I shot an 82. Including in that 82, was an 8. Par 4, tee shot OB. Rehit, landed in some nasty stuff off the fairway. Took two shots to get out. Hit onto the green and two putted. Score was an 8. Based upon what you're saying, by doing that, I am now "cheating" and "sandbagging" my opponent even though that 82 did nothing to lower my HC? Forgive my ignorance but I don't see how that 8 affects my opponent, if I had one.

[Craig Mac]

Craig, the upper 80's, low 90's, aren't going to mean jack for your handicap. Heck, you can post 5 scores in the 100's and still be a single digit handicap. Only your 10 best scores matter, how low do you go when you are playing well. Your bad rounds don't count, they are mearly place holders, taking up a spot in your 20 most recent.

I understand that but too many more of those scores will effect my handi, that's what I basically meant. A low round for me is around 80 (+/-2).

[MrSandman]

Junkie, you know I am a fan of your posts, but, Yes, by carding an 8, that is sandbagging.

It does not affect your opponent for that round. It affects your opponent for future rounds.

The 82 should have been an 81. If that was the case every round, then your handicap is a stroke higher than it should be, and every match you play against an opponent who follows the rules, you are receiving an extra stroke.

Also, to further the problem, you are right on an ESC border. If you have one of these strokes a round (maybe not every round, but some rounds you might have two of them), then your handicap might legitimately be a 9 instead of an 11. In that case, you would not be allowed to take more than a double, and that 8 would have to be posted as a 6. And in that instance, it would negatively affect your handicap by 2 strokes for that score. If you win your next match by 1 hole, that may have been a loss if you followed the rules, which is exactly what sandbagging is.

So in your next match, you would be getting 2 more strokes from an opponent than you deserve. By doing what you think is "honest", you are actually cheating.


You say you are not "intentionally" keeping your handicap higher, but by "intentionally" ignoring ESC requirements, you are pumping your handicap higher than it should be (and as you are an 11, it might actually be more than just a stroke or two, as you are on an ESC border). Whether or not you like ESC, or agree with its theory, it is a handicap rule just as much as stroke and distance, and failure to follow it is sandbagging.

[golf_junkie27]

Thank you for the explanation. I did not see it as such because I was posting my total score, through GHIN at Sprain Lake, and not doing it by hole.

I'll have to change this for posting purposes, going forward.

Again, thank you for clarifying this.

[MrSandman]

It likely does not have a large affect on your handicap, how often do you make 8s or 9s (especially in your 10 best rounds), so don't go stressing about it. But there is a reason why USGA instituted ESC many years ago, and they do require that you follow it, and it does have some impact on your hdcp.


My father used to be great at this. "I shot a 90 today with an 11 on the 5th hole...." What?!?! That means you shot an 86 today for handicap purposes, so post it as such. He thought he was just keeping it real honest, but then he was grabbing strokes on 3 more holes than he should in matches, which is not honest against his competition. And most of the time his 10s would come on a hole where the opponent would be in at 4 or 5, and he was rushing to hole out (not concentrating and then three putting from 10 feet while the opponent is waiting). That means that 6 of the differential from hdcp is coming from one hole, but his opponent still has to give him strokes on 5 more of the holes, even though they might play those even.


Handicap is not your average score above par. It is a USGA formula that ignores strokes over triple bogey (for 10-20 hdcp) and also ignores your 10 worst rounds, to calculate a fair way of allowing players of different skill levels to play competative matches.

[MrSandman]

Another funny effect of this is often you will see a player drop from a 10 or 11 to a 9 hdcp, and they will very quickly drop right down to an 8 or 7. Not only has their play improved a stroke or two, but their ESC has dropped. Now, blow one out of bounds (which is still going to happen), and it is no longer a likely triple bogey, it is now only a double bogey. Lose a ball (again, that will still happen), no more triple bogey, only a double bogey. The 9 handicap is likely still making the triples he was making as a 10 or 11 handicap, but it counts a stroke less now, so there is another shaved stroke. Especially on a par 3, where the 10 hdcp can take a 7, but the 9 can only take a 5. Lose a ball on a par 3 as a 10 hdcp, you might take a 7, but as a 9 hdcp, you're taking 2 fewer strokes.

[bigphil]

i have never used the ESC but after reading this thread, i suppose i'll start using it. I have only posted about 5 holes at a triple or worse (carded a 9 once on a par 5 ). it makes sense to use it because those holes that were garbage, were exactly that...garbage. good thread

[MrSandman]

i have never used the ESC but after reading this thread, i suppose i'll start using it. I have only posted about 5 holes at a triple or worse (carded a 9 once on a par 5

And if those 5 holes were during rounds that are no longer in your more recent 20, or are not part of your 10 best, then they are irrelevant anyway. So don't go thinking you are a sandbagger, although you should post proper ESC adjusted scores in the future.

[RemyM]

So, by keeping an honest score I am now a "sandbagger?" I'm not using that to intentionally keep my handicap higher or to cheat.

If you fail to adjust your scores for ESC before posting them into a handicap computer then there is a chance you handicap is higher then it should be. I am the handicap chairman at my club and I check for people not adjusting their score. If it becomes a pattern I can reduce or revoke their handicap.

[MrSandman]

If you fail to adjust your scores for ESC before posting them into a handicap computer then there is a chance you handicap is higher then it should be. I am the handicap chairman at my club and I check for people not adjusting their score. If it becomes a pattern I can reduce or revoke their handicap.

How do you monitor this? Word of mouth?

In the old days, some courses required players to submit their cards. But in this internet era, how do you monitor stuff like this?

[Harry Longshanks]

The USGA really needs to do more to educate golfers about ESC. There are so many people who don't know, or understand it or why it is important. Even after reading the USGA website, it's not clear. And of those people who do use ESC, many mistakenly use their handicap index, instead of the course handicap to calculate the maximum score for a hole.