The Swing: Body versus Arms

[jambalaya]

We had a lively debate on another forum concerning what controls the swing or provides most of the power for the swing: The body or the arms. You've probably heard these arguments before. One person says his arms are passive and he uses his core muscules to propel his arms around the body. Then there is the Jim Flick thinking that the arms control everything and the body follows the arms. I think both ways of thinking have a profound affect on how you swing the club. The discussion always makes me want to go back to square one on some aspects of my swing. What are your thoughts on this debate?

[m11]

In short, the body pulls the arms.


On full swings, the coiling of your body is what generates power in your swing. When you get to the top of your swing, the uncoiling of your hips pulls your shoulders and arms through impact, and pulls your arms into a full finish. Golfers who dont go to a full finish are generally swinging with their arms...as if you are completely uncoiling with your hips, you need to actively stop your hands from finishing at the top.

If you have a very 'armsy' swing....it is very difficult to create sufficient lag. A golfer would have a lot of trouble releasing the club too early, and although it is possible to make ok contact...you cannot take advantage of the club's construction in order to get long high shots that settle softly. The pulling of the arms with the hips and shoulders allow you to 'stay back' on the ball and create lag...and therefore power.

[tm22721]

Using the arms from the top can create muscle tension and inconsistency.

It is much less risky to start the downswing with passive arms and then begin to apply force after you are on plane about halfway down.

[x-forged]

We had a lively debate on another forum concerning what controls the swing or provides most of the power for the swing: The body or the arms.

The body produces most of the power. The core muscles and legs are the main power producers. The arms are simply pulled by the hips, shoulders and legs to produce torque and swing speed.

Also, I believe that the more "armsy" you get, the less consistent you will be. The control comes from the big muscles IMO.

[MPS67]

I agree with all of you stating that it's the body that drives the golf swing.

Other than using my upper arms to maintain the position of my hands in front of my chest, I never apply additional hand action in my swing.

[jambalaya]

Can you get all the clubhead speed you need with passive arms and wrists? I have debated with someone who suggested that clubhead speed is primarily due to the action of the arms and wrists. Is this a different issue?

[lolzzlolzz]

There should be no conscious hand action in the golf swing whatsoever.. this is impossible to do consistently. Most of the power comes from the body, mainly the hips and knees. The arms do provide a great amount of power as well.

The hands simply follow the arms, so it's important to train your arms to act the same way swing after swing by practicing 20 minutes of slow motion every day.

[JackLee]

I was aware that Jim Flick teaches hands and arms, but if I do that, my arm swing gets ahead of my body movements with disastrous results.

Here is what I posted in another thread for someone who was looking for a swing that would be easy on his right shoulder.

”Well, I don’t have shoulder problems, but:

If you hold a golf club with only your left hand, you will find that the only way you can swing it, while maintaining good extension, is to push the clubhead back with your left shoulder, and then pull the clubhead down and through with your left shoulder. So, your left shoulder and the momentum of the clubhead do all of the swinging. Your left arm and left hand control the extension, rotation, and some of the wrist action.

Of course, to make a good swing with this type of control, you must put both hands on the club, and allow your right side to help your left side. When done correctly, this swing makes full use of the centrifugal force, momentum, gravity, and the forward kick of the shaft.

You should find that left shoulder control makes all of your other body movements automatic and synchronizes them perfectly with your arm swing, and that includes making the left hip lead.

This is the bare basics of some instruction that I have been using for a few weeks. It works great for me, but I don’t know if it works for everyone.

I thought that this might be easy on your right shoulder. You would just have to try it and see. If you have any interest in this, just put the title in on Google.

It is “The Golf Swing and It’s Master Key Explained” by Noel Thomas. The e-book is only $6.00 and has a money back guarantee. I should warn you that it has no illustrations, but it is easy to read and understand.”

In this swing, my left shoulder is the control, but, of course, it is my entire torso and legs that are doing the work. My arms do no swinging at all.

Whatever swing method you use, your body movements must lead your arm swing. Maybe some players can get their body movements to respond perfectly to their arm swing. I have never been able to do that.

[whip_it_out]

I know some players have the feel to control the arms better than letting their body pull them along, but as far as consistency goes, using the big muscles of your body to swing the club, with no thought of your hands will work better.

Swinging with the hands and arms will allow you to hit it a long ways, 1 out of 10 times, when using the hands excessively it is very hard to get it right all the time. And when you don't, the ball can go either direction, and usually not very far.

When using the body, it allows you to more easily square up the club face, and will lead to straighter longer golf shots, more easily. I've noticed(with my swing) that when i use my body and forget about my arms, my swing speed increases because my muscles relax, and relaxed muscles move faster than tense ones.

[lolzzlolzz]

The function of the arms is just as important as the movements of the body in the golf swing, especially during impact.

[MPS67]

Can you get all the clubhead speed you need with passive arms and wrists?

If correctly executing a swing driven by the body, you will have a ton more club head speed with passive lower arms and wrists versus active arms & wrists.

When using the body, it allows you to more easily square up the club face, and will lead to straighter longer golf shots, more easily.

I completely agree. I'd like to add that another positive result from using the body is more precise ball contact, swing after swing. I believe this is the case because when allowing the club to passively release through the ball, the wrists are only acting as a hinge. Whereas, the active hands golfer is manipulating the release, which only the best golfers are capable of doing well in such an insignificant amount of time.

I've noticed(with my swing) that when i use my body and forget about my arms, my swing speed increases because my muscles relax, and relaxed muscles move faster than tense ones.

Didn't Hogan write something about this in Five Fundamentals? Something like writing that muscle tension in the wrists is a swing killer?

[lolzzlolzz]

If correctly executing a swing driven by the body, you will have a ton more club head speed with passive lower arms and wrists versus active arms & wrists.

I don't recall Hogan directly writing that, but he said it in many other ways.

As for the passive arms and hands, I disagree. The arms need to be active, the hands and wrists need to be passive. The hands follow the arms, and the arms follow the body, but the body can only do so much with the arms. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the body cannot square the club face, the arms need to be trained to do this. You should activate your arms at address. You do this by pointing the elbows in.. by pressing them together. Close enough so a two or three inch gap is between them. This will allow your arms to act together as one unit, almost like having one big arm. Also, keeping them pointed in lets the shoulders rotate properly. As for impact... just before your make contact with the ball, your club should be at least parallel with the ground. The wrists should be hinged, yet still passive. This is what they call the "wrist lag." Then, the left arm takes over. The left elbow should start pointing in to the body, while the right arm maintains position. This squares the club face, and allows you to use the powerful muscles of the right arm to their fullest potential (without letting them take over and ruining your swing). You should essentially feel that you are sweeping through the ball.. not down at it, but through. And the best way to train the left elbow to point in just before impact (it happens really fast), is to practice swinging in slow motion. 20 minutes of slow motion a day has helped me tremendously in the past week.

[MPS67]

I don't recall Hogan directly writing that, but he said it in many other ways.

I contract my arms and wrist muscles isometrically in order to maintain positions. I understand that many successful golfers activate their right arm once they're in the slot. I'm from the camp that lets the fully generated power transfer through from body to the shoulders, then arms, then hands & wrists.

[JackLee]

If passive arms and/or hands means that they don’t do anything but hold onto the club, then that would not describe my swing. My arms and hands don’t do any of the swinging. My body does that. However, my left arm and hand control the extension, rotation, and maybe some of the wrist action. I am also aware that my right hand helps a great deal with the rotation through impact.

I think there are some who like to use a grip and ball position that will return the clubface to square through impact, without any conscious rotation. I have not tried that.

[whip_it_out]

.

Good luck getting the feel for that.

[lolzzlolzz]

Does it not make sense? The arms actively move (meaning you consciously move them) and have live tension between them, while the hands and wrists are soft and passive (meaning you don't give a single thought as to what they are doing or where they are in the swing). You control the arms, and if you use them properly the hands will automatically function correctly... providing they are passive.

[JaY_B]

I would say you get all your power from a combined unwinding/rotation of the body and arms on the down swing, the two go hand in hand.

[MPS67]

This is an interesting discussion, I must say, as there seem to be contrasting opinions on this matter. I've dug a little deeper on this topic and have come to realize that there's no wrong or right answer as it depends on whether the golfer prefers the "swinger" or "hitter" approach. For more details, read the excerpt below. For the entire article, click HERE .


In the above photo, one can see that Ben Hogan has a great deal of wrist lag action, and he is maintaining it throughout the first half of the downswing. It is only after the right elbow reaches the right hip area, and the hands reach waist level, that the hands will release the club thereby allowing the clubshaft to move in an arc down towards the ball.

"According to David Tutelman, very little muscle swing power is normally produced by the arm/forearm/hands when the wrists finally uncock at waist level, and most of the swing power is the end-result of centrifugal forces set into play by torque forces applied at the central core hinge point. In fact, clubhead swing speed may be maximised if the arms/forearms/hands are totally passsive and very relaxed during the downswing, so that they do not interfere with the fluidity of the swing's centrifugal force action-evolution. In other words, one can think of the modern golf swing being actively powered by the central torso, while the arms/hands can be conceived to be passive agents that merely transmit the swing power to the clubshaft via a double-pendulum swing action. A golfer who swings in this manner is a "swinger" and I personally recommend that beginner golfers adopt the mental idea of becoming a "swinger". Some golfers who adopt the double pendulum swing action are known as "hitters" because they apply an additional amount of torque at the hand hinge point during the downswing. A "hitter" applies forearm/hand muscle power during the downswing in order to increase the amount of hand hinge torque force, so that it supplements the torque force generated at the central hinge point, and hopefully results in even greater clubhead speed. A "hitter" can only successfully accomplish this feat if he applies hand torque force at the correct downswing moment (starting when the clubshaft is about 60 degrees from the vertical) and in perfect synchrony with the centrifugal forces already in play. If the "hitter" hits from the start of the downswing, he may cast the club (release the "wrist lag" prematurely) from the top, which will decrease centrifugal force "F" by increasing swing radius "r", and this will actually decrease clubhead speed. Therefore, perfect timing is critical if one wants to become a successful "hitter" and a beginner golfer should first think of becoming a perfect "swinger", before he thinks of increasing his clubhead speed by also becoming a perfect "hitter". To successfully learn how to become a perfect "swinger", a golfer needs to have an in-depth understanding of the modern, total body golf swing."