Hogan's swing overated??

[hurley9192]

Would Tiger have won as many majors if more of them were stroke play?

what majors are not stroke play?

[lolzzlolzz]

His swing was amazing. At only 135 lbs he could hit his crappy driver 300+ yards when he wanted to. Not a perfect swing, but the best I've ever seen... and the statistics show it.

People would talk about Hogan's "secret" because he was able to return after his accident and play better than before. He would tell the media and his playing parters that he has a secret, and this drove everyone crazy.

[Strikeb4ck]

PGA Championship was match play during Hogans time.

[Wisco-Kid]

IMO Hogan definitely has the best swing. It is effortless, smooth, controlled, balanced, powerful, repeatable and consistent......in other words perfect.

I think that the reason that people refer to his swing and compare to him is because his book "The Five Fundamentals" was so well written that for the first time the golf swing made sense to alot of people and they could understand it. His idea of the swing plane was revolutionary and the first time I read about it in his book everything made perfect sense to me.

Not only that but after reading his book it made me a much better golfer.

So I guess if emulating his swing made me a better golfer and I am sure many others on this forum can say the same thing there must be something to it...

[MrKadash]

People would talk about Hogan's "secret" because he was able to return after his accident and play better than before. He would tell the media and his playing parters that he has a secret, and this drove everyone crazy.

Technically his 'secret' was realized before his accident (by himself), as he was winning golf tournaments before. He was most successful after, which heightened everyones awareness that there could be more than met the eye in regards to his swing. This is according to 'Hogan' by Sampson. IMO, there is nothing "overrated" about a golf swing if it produces results.

[allin]

I meant match play, more important than my small error is the reasoning, especially when you probably could have figured out what I meant instead of nitpicking and made a real contribution.

[PEZGolf]

Why is it whenever there are swing theories discussed there always seems to be a reference to Ben Hogan's swing (and the "secret"??) as if it is "the swing" to try and emmulate. In reality wasnt this just a guy who worked out how to stop hooking the ball and then worked extremely hard to maitain it. Funny how you never really hear much about the swing of the greatest player to date (Jack Nicklaus) as a swing of technical merit.

You ask good questions, and here are some of the answers: 1. For the average player or the tournament player, hitting a fade is definitely preferable to hitting a draw---for this reason: under pressure, a draw can very easily become a hook. Under pressure, a fade will NOT become a slice. A famous quote sums it up (I believe it is from Trevino)----you cannot talk to a hook; you do not have to talk to a fade. Hooks cost a player penalty strokes and shots from the woods; fades are very controllable and predictable. Nicklaus used to say he would just aim down the left side of the fairway and KNOW the ball would never end up in the left rough. 2. A player can have a GREAT record and have a swing that others should NOT emulate. Here is a fact about Jack Nicklaus: his swing was designed by Jack Grout to fit his physical attributes and it was designed first for POWER. Jack had very strong legs and very weak hands. I believe his thighs were 28" in diameter each, and if you look at photos before he lost weight, you will notice two things: he had large, powerful legs, and he wound up his body so much that his left heel was way off the ground at the top of his swing WITH THE DRIVER. As we all know, he had a "flying right elbow" because he took the club back so straight from the ball for so long. To sum it up, his swing had unique features, which means it is NOT meant for all. Hogan's swing is one that can be used by many players, including average ones. 3. Hogan was the one player that ALL the others would watch when he practiced, including Jack Nicklaus. Why was that? Because his swing looked good? NO. Because of results. His fellow competitors knew how accurate he was, and they wanted to see why his swing was like a machine in repeating itself. One true story sums up his accuracy and his complete confidence in his swing. No other golfer in recent history (except perhaps Byron Nelson) can even approach Hogan for this accomplishment, and almost all of them, certainly Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods, have played the same golf course under tournament conditions and have not EVEN ATTEMPTED what Hogan actually did: In 1953, in his only appearance in the Open Championship, he played at Carnoustie. To this day, that course has the reputation of being one of the toughest, if not THE toughest, of all the courses in the rota. The par 5 sixth hole has one of the toughest landing areas in all of golf: a fairway bunker on the right, and out-of-bounds to the left. The hole dares the golfer to hit driver, knowing that trouble is on both sides. Hogan hit driver all four days, and was in the fairway each of those times. In the book, "An American Life" by James Dodson, Hogan told Harry Andrew that he missed only one fairway in QUALIFYING for that Open Championship and in the tournament itself. "I never hit a drive more than TEN FEET from where I wanted it." Nicklaus could not do that; Tiger Woods could not do that. Nelson might have. In shooting a 68 in the final round, Hogan accomplished the following: 1. A new course record for Carnoustie. 2. His 282 broke the previous tournament record at that course by EIGHT strokes. 3. That score of 282 established a new record for the Championship itself. The Scot are a dour people, very sparing in their words, especially of praise. Ben Wright, was a young man in the gallery, and he recounts the atmosphere on that Sunday as electrifying. He described the situation in these words: "In that regard, there had NEVER been anything like Hogan at Carnoustie. And I daresay there NEVER shall be again." Enough said.

[iacas]

1. For the average player or the tournament player, hitting a fade is definitely preferable to hitting a draw---for this reason: under pressure, a draw can very easily become a hook. Under pressure, a fade will NOT become a slice.

Tell that to Phil Mickelson. And I'm sorry, but a famous quote from Lee Trevino doesn't escape the fact that you're making a HUGE generalization and backing it up by a quote meant to be funny. Nicklaus hit the ball left quite a few times under pressure, too. Vijay Singh has as well - famously.

2. A player can have a GREAT record and have a swing that others should NOT emulate.

You've failed to refute the Hogan question because... perhaps Hogan had a great record with a swing you shouldn't emulate.

Trevor Immelman's swing is "like Hogan's" - we heard it all throughout The Masters - and aside from that win, what's he really done with his career?

3. Hogan was the one player that ALL the others would watch when he practiced, including Jack Nicklaus. Why was that?

Same is true to some extent of Vijay nowadays. "Practice" wasn't en vogue at the time - getting a drink after the round was the MO. They'd watch him the same way you watch some freak at the mall. And Nicklaus didn't come onto the scene until Hogan was pretty much out of it. The U.S. Open at Cherry Hills being their main crossing point. I also recall stories of Nicklaus watching Palmer hit balls on the range.

and they wanted to see why his swing was like a machine in repeating itself.

Ah, and that's there is the biggest, most important thing in a good swing: repetition. The ability to repeat.

I guarantee you that if I could hit my 7-iron only 150 yards (and spaced my clubs out from there) and I could put the same exact swing on every club, if I was at all a good putter I'd be challenging Tiger Woods for major records and world #1 status. Tiger's swing isn't like Hogan's. Jim Furyk's isn't. Nicklaus' wasn't. But their swings repeat often enough that they win. As for hitting it up Hogan's alley, big whoop. You can't compare generations like that because Tiger reached the green without driving it in that slot - so it'd be monumentally stupid to aim that far left. That "feat" - along with the course records and whatnot - also says nothing about the question being asked.

3. That score of 282 established a new record for the Championship itself.

Gee, who holds that record now? It ain't Hogan.

PEZ, you seem content to live in the 1950s. Why enter a conversation like this when your point of view is so predictably slanted? Is Hogan's swing over-rated? I say sure. Same is true of Nicklaus' and Woods' and everyone else's that's won a lot. But they repeat, and that's 90% of the battle.

[PEZGolf]

You are right---repetition is the key. Good repetition produces accuracy, and Hogan had it. The stats show it, and the "Shell's Wonderful World of Golf" where Hogan played Sam Snead graphically shows it. Hogan beat Snead---69 to 72, and Snead pointed out at the end that Hogan hit every fairway and every green. Snead outdrove him by 25 yards on almost all the par 5's and par 4's, and still lost. And Hogan did not putt well that day. But then, he did not have to.

[kc8kir]

Hogan is studied because he was so consistent. His power fade was so repeating, so accurate. Yet he also had a lot of power in his swing. Power and accuracy ... the combination every golfer dreams of.

Ball striking btw, doesn't have to neccessarily be straight. It infers the relative capacity to consistently produce the shots called for (shaped shots) with flush contact and controlled accuracy.

People study Hogan hoping something he discovered could be used in their own swing to grab a piece of his consistency and power. There were other great swings in his time (Snead, Nelson, then later Nicklaus, Watson, Trevino, Ballesteros), but none of them achieved the legendary fame quite like Ben Hogan's. Spectators knew the sound of his ballstriking apart from all other tour pros. Between Ben Hogan and Moe Norman, the world has not see a better ballstriker. There are many accounts of Hogan making shots that other tour pros didn't even dare attempt, or fathomed impossible. To phrase a today's most well known golf champion, "they owned their swings".

Is it strange in some way that Ben was stone faced on the course, whereas Moe was a complete eccentric?