Rules question,...

[heyscuba]

My friends ball rolled up against a small fence post near a cart path, the post was not an out of bounds marker or near o.B at all, it held a rope to keep your cart out of the fairway, we both felt he was entitlted to relief, he wanted to take relief (within one club lenght/no closer) between the post and the cart path, but that would leave his feet on the path,... this would give him a clear shot to the green,...I said "you have to take it out towards the fairway and take relief where your feet are not on the path,... (bringing some tree's into play) I don't think you can take relief to a spot where you again need relief when you are getting a free drop,..." he thought "well if I want to stand on the path and hit it I can right,...?" I said "no,... when atking relief you mus take full relief,..." (meaning,... get your feet off that cart path dude,...!)

whos' right here,...?

also, say your ball is in a lateral hazard, you take your 1 stroke penalty and bring your ball out and you take your 2 club lengths/no closer and that gets you on a cart path and past the center of it giving you relief on the other side of the cart path, in this case you can do that right,...? because you're taking a stroke vs getting a free drop,...?


I always remeber this statement,...
"Your nearest point of relief is not always your best point of relief,..."

scuba
st. louis

[JCDot33]

Was the post a moveable post or not (sometimes they are just stakes with ropes though them to keep carts out) ... those you can just move the stakes I believe ... but otherwise I think it's full relief in this situation ... stance with full backswing ... then a drop within 1 club-length ...

I am not 100% sure on this, but I just had that happen to me the other day, and that is what I was told ... I am sure that someone with more knowledge will post here rather quickly on this one ...

[RemyM]

Each relief is separate, and I'm assuming that the cart path did not interfere at first, just the post. If the post was an immovable obstruction and interfered with his stance or swing then he is entitled to relief. If his nearest point of relief put him on the cart path then so be it, he would take his relief from the post. If he then had interference with the cart path then he was entitled to relief from that immovable obstruction, and yes he must take complete relief each time.

Same for the hazard, take his penalty relief first then he could take relief from the immovable obstruction, you can't combine them into one relief.

[tjy355]

I think Remy is correct, each element of relief is considered seperately meaning relief from the cart path is not related to relief from the post.

I'm pretty sure he could have taken relief from the post and played the shot standing on the cart path.

[heyscuba]

check this out,..

http://www.usga.org/questions/faqs/r...idx=96&Rule;=24

watch the vid of payne stewart,... (try the low bandwith button)

I think full relief means when you are taking a free drop you must take "full" relief,...
if he drops is where his feet are on the path he didn't take full relief,...
there was room for him to take full relief away from the cart path, but it put him in line with some trees,...

[heyscuba]

this was not a movable post,...

[iacas]

this was not a movable post,...

Regardless, it's not the post, and the post isn't part of the cart path.

The proper procedure would be as follows: 1) find the nearest point of (complete*) relief from the obstruction 2) drop within one clublength 3) play away or, if interfered with by something ELSE, go back to step 1 Payne's video is irrelevant. He took relief from the path but his foot was still on the path. Your friend would be taking relief from a post, then a cart path - not the same thing(s). * goes without saying, really

[mikelz]

Each relief is separate, and I'm assuming that the cart path did not interfere at first, just the post. If the post was an immovable obstruction and interfered with his stance or swing then he is entitled to relief. If his nearest point of relief put him on the cart path then so be it, he would take his relief from the post. If he then had interference with the cart path then he was entitled to relief from that immovable obstruction, and yes he must take complete relief each time.

You said the operative word: "entitled"

That the guy was entitled to relief from the path does not mean he was obligated to take relief.

[heyscuba]

Each relief is separate, and I'm assuming that the cart path did not interfere at first, just the post. If the post was an immovable obstruction and interfered with his stance or swing then he is entitled to relief. If his nearest point of relief put him on the cart path then so be it, he would take his relief from the post. If he then had interference with the cart path then he was entitled to relief from that immovable obstruction, and yes he must take complete relief each time.

actually the cart path would have been in play on the first ball too,... it was very cloae to the fence post, in other words he would have been standing on the path to address the ball as it laid against the post, so both the post and the path were in question,..

This is where the line,... "a player must take complete (or full) relief,..." comes into play,... please for the haters and people who like to start e-fights,... I'm just trying to learn the rules here, not trying to throw my buddy under the bus or what ever BIRDIE MAN will say about this post.

[heyscuba]

You said the operative word: "entitled"

this is an important part of the question,... and the answer,...

I didn't properly state or indicate in the first note that the had the pole not been there he would have been on the path anyway, so he had 2 relief situation at the same time,... he wanted to drop it where the he was still standing on the path, now he'd have relief from the pole but not from the path,.... if he then chose to get relief from the path he would have put himself in a line where some tree's were in play, can he choose to hit it with his feet on the path,...? I know you can if you just walk up to a ball and there it sits near the path, but can you do that after taking a free drop,...? the way i read the rules the answer is no,...???? BTW, I'm only here to learn and share, not here to fight and throw insults around as BIRDIE MAN likes to do,... ( fighting with people you don't know from your computer,... BIRDIE MAN, get a life, or go to the young kids site like YOUTUBE, they have a bunch of haters over there)

[heyscuba]

Regardless, it's not the post, and the post isn't part of the cart path.

actually the cart path would have been in play on the first ball too,... it was very cloae to the fence post, in other words he would have been standing on the path to address the ball as it laid against the post, so both the post and the path were in question,..

This is where the line,... "a player must take complete (or full) relief,..." comes into play,... he had room to take the relief from both but he didn't like where that put his ball,.. so he wanted to take relief from the post but not from the path, I don't think that is complete/full relief,... please for the haters and people who like to start e-fights,... I'm just trying to learn the rules here, not trying to throw my buddy under the bus or what ever BIRDIE MAN will say about this post.

[blue3715]

2 obstructions at the same time (post and path).... I'm not sure what the rules say on that one. I would assume the player could decide which relief he was taking first (post), then the path. In most cases it would not make a difference.. relifed from the path is relief from the post. I guess the trees (in the way) made it more optimal to do a double relief.
You could pose the Q to the USGA for a review. Perhaps it's already in the books? A swing obstruction gets relief before a stance obstruction? Just a guess.

[powerfade]

heyscuba - You simply have to state what you are taking relief from. In this case, he should state he's taking relief from the stake (immovable obstruction). Find the nearest point of relief and drop within 1 club.

He could then decide if wants to take relief from the cart path doing the same procedure. State you are taking relief from the cart path and continue on.

Remember another thing about taking relief...there is only one 'nearest point of relief'. It could affect which direction the relief from the two separate obstructions takes you.

[iacas]

heyscuba - You simply have to state what you are taking relief from. In this case, he should state he's taking relief from the stake (immovable obstruction). Find the nearest point of relief and drop within 1 club.

First, the OP should have been more accurate in describing the situation.

Second, I don't think you get to choose what you're taking relief from in this kind of situation, no. You're taking relief from an "immovable obstruction," of which there are several. Imagine a stone walkway with lots of stones. You get relief from the walkway as a whole, not from each individual stone, even if there's grass between them. If your ball or stance is on the cart path and you're interfered with by a stake, and you choose to take relief, I believe you take relief from both. You can't choose, I believe.

[heyscuba]

First, the OP should have been more accurate in describing the situation.

Thanks, I agree, the way I read it that's the way it should be,.....

ps,... i tried to be accurrate, I just forgot the fact that the path was in way as well as the post on my first note,...

[mikelz]

First, the OP should have been more accurate in describing the situation.

I believe you are dead wrong in that last paragraph.

Taking relief from the post is one event covered by the rules. Standing on the path is another event. I'm sure you have hit one off the path because you would be blocked if you dropped. First one to find the rules decision wins. I'll bet on me to find it fastest but I'm not starting until Monday. Happy hunting.

[iacas]

I believe you are dead wrong in that last paragraph.

The USGA says no, given one condition: how close the post is to the cart path. If there's no room to take a drop that gives you relief from both, they're considered one and the same "immovable obstruction."

Of course I've played off a cartpath (never with my club, but my foot standing on it) because I liked the lie or dropping would put me behind a tree or whatever. But that's not relevant here.

[heyscuba]

the original question was (or was supposed to be)
could he take relief from the post and the path (the post was in the way of him hitting the ball but he would have been on the path as well) and put the ball in a spot where he is standing on the cart path to hit his next shot,... ?
I say no because taking relief means taking full relief and if he puts it in a place where he is standing on a cart path the he didn't take full relief,,...
right?
there was room for him to put it in a place where neither the path or the post would be in play, but he didn't like that spot, (tree's in front of him) he liked it where his feet were on the path and no tree's in front of him,...