Gun Owners!

[misty_mountainhop]

I'm reluctant to get into a debate with anyone from a country that allows pretty much free gun ownership (so this is all I'll post) but I'm pretty shocked at the "logic" behind owning whatever you like. What the Hell for? And don't give me stuff about criminals. Constitution? Come on, it's a poor excuse. As for groups like your NRA, maybe Charlton Heston etc would think a little differently if they suffered a stupid, gun-related tragedy; you could almost wish it on someone so dogmatically stupid.

You want to shoot targets, get a .22 (preferably an air gun) and shoot targets. I can see the need for a shotgun in the right hands. I can see the need for hunting rifles, especially given you have much wilder territory in many places than we do!

Firearms (even logical ones like the above) should be VERY restricted. You (and everywhere else) have far too many, frankly, thick people to allow them essentially free access to guns and ammo.

I really hope we don't get to the situation in the U.S; God (and I don't believe in that fairy tale either!) help us if we do. I think it's too late for you as there is no way the position can be reversed. How many High School shootings do you need?!?

[Laxplayer201092]

My oh my sir..

How many school shootings do we need? Would you prefer if we just went around stabbing each other? A shotgun as stated before is much more lethal at close range than any rifle, so you would indeed prefer taht people run around my school and shoot me witha shotgun, rather than a scary rifle?

Yes, i enjoy shooting targets, and a 22 is a sorry excuse for a firearm. Did you know that in the vietnam war, Spec ops units would shoot vietnamese in the head with a .22 pistol, they wouldnt die right away, they had about a half hour before the bleeding finally did them in. this gave them time to interogate them safley. So your telling me that the only means of defence i should have for my home is a .22 which wont kill a man?

Maybe in your "fairytale" U.K. people dont kill eachother, maybe people dont own body armor and have plots to rob banks, but the truth is they do. and someday you will be in a situation where you will wish you had more than a .22 or a shotty, because they wont do anything against a body armor, which more and more criminals have these days.

So you say i cant give you stuff about criminals being the reason i need firearms.. has your house ever been broken into? have you ever needed a firearm for your own defence? probobly not, but i have. Take a walk in my shoes, your sleeping soundly, theres a crash, you wake up, oh lookie, someones in my house, what are you going to do? call the cops? "when seconds count, law enforcement are only minutes away." they cant do anything, hide? great, let him find your wife and kids. Fantastic!

We have too many firearms? no, the wrong people have firearms. You walk around my school, i gurantee you will find guns of many shapes and sizes, hell, there was a drive by shooting at my school last year that was kept very hush hush. Think about it, its illegal for anyone under 21 to be in possesion of a handgun, but no one at my school is older than 21, so there they are breaking a law, if i tell them its illegal to have guns, so what! they wont care, they are already breaking the law.

Some European countrys POLICE officers cant even carry guns..they have to scream, "unarmed police unarmed police" when they are chasing a fugitive. What good does that do for your country?

Misty, Im sorry, and i mean you no harm by this, but i sincerly hope that some day you witness a need for guns. My life has been greatly affected by firearms, and they teach me alot about human nature. The truth is, Humans have been beating each other and stabbing each other for thousands of years. Is it any different for someoen to walk into your home and beat you to death, than for him to simply shoot you? No. Its murder either way. Guns are not the issue. the fact that our youth find it acceptable to shoot each other is the issue.

Brian.

[Laxplayer201092]

The NRA is what is is, my opinion on them stands and is rooted with experience and evidence. I'm not sure about you but if my family gets taken hostage I don't think I'm going to attempt a rescue on my own and get center happy. I'd call out crisis negotiation and set up a containment....that's the way professionals handle it and that's who you should let take control of the situation if it should occur (Don't play police man). And please in the future do not use my fiance in your whacko gun nut scenarios, it cheapens your opinions.

First off im not a wacko.. I think tis rather odd that your life depends on weapons, yet you dont belive in them. What is it in Cali, you cant have a mag over, 9? 9 rounds?

im not using your fiancee, i dont know her, im saying that if someoen you loved was in trouble would you not take immidiate action? or would you walk outside, leaving her inside with the criminal while you call the police? I dont play police, but i also wouldntleave my family in danger..

[NM Golf]

I am a card carrying member of the NRA. I own several firearms, I will not list them on here. There are several things I believe in.

I believe-
you must be 100% sure you could shoot and kill an intruder. most people cannot do this. If you cannot be sure then a gun is useless and will most likely be used against you.

most people are poorly trained and would have a high probability of injuring themselves or a family member if ever put into self defense situation. Get trained or get rid of the gun.

There are too many cowboys out there that want a Desert Eagle 50 caliber for home protection not realizing if you miss your target it will travel through 5 bedroom walls the exterior wall and probably kill your neighbor. Bullets easily go through interior walls and some exterior walls for that matter. Many innocent family members have been injured because Mr. Big Shot needed a hand cannon when a small gauge shotgun or even a .22 would have been a much safer alternative.

You must keep guns secure yet available. Gun safety should begin at a very young age but is not enough, guns should be kept completely inaccessible to children.

There is absolutely no need for automatic weapons. I have fired them and they are really no more fun than semi-autos. They just use more bullets.

If you give up any more guns rights then they will want more. Give an inch they will take a mile. Make a stand don't give up any more gun rights.

If you are a gun owner, do not be fooled. Obama is going to make it extremely hard on the gun owners. He and Biden might not be out to repeal the second ammendment but they are certainly out to do it damage. If you believe his TV rhetoric where he says he believes in the second ammendment, well then you deserve to have your gun rights infringed on.

[NM Golf]

Yes, i enjoy shooting targets, and a 22 is a sorry excuse for a firearm. Did you know that in the vietnam war, Spec ops units would shoot vietnamese in the head with a .22 pistol, they wouldnt die right away, they had about a half hour before the bleeding finally did them in. this gave them time to interogate them safley. So your telling me that the only means of defence i should have for my home is a .22 which wont kill a man?

I am going to kick myself for this but I have to respond to this absolutlely ridiculous post. A .22 will most certainly kill a man. You are obviously the cowboy I spoke about in my earlier post. I hope I never live next to you because in a bad situation you are certain to panic and set off a barrage of high powered gunfire that both endangers your family and mine. Please before you start spouting off about something you obviously know little about, get informed. Please take a home defense firearm class before you kill somebody.

As far as you ,misty_mountaintop, are concerned.......shut-up you whiny, preachy so and so. We don't need your opinion. Didn't we kick your a$$ in a war some years back for that exact reason?

[EquipmentJunkie]

We call .22's cop killers because if for some reason you get hit anywhere other than your trauma plate and that bullet pierces skin it bounces around in the body (rare to see an exit wound with a .22) and shreds your organs. I agree that a .22 does not have much immediate stopping power but to say it isn't deadly is ignorant.

[Laxplayer201092]

I am going to kick myself for this but I have to respond to this absolutlely ridiculous post. A .22 will most certainly kill a man. You are obviously the cowboy I spoke about in my earlier post. I hope I never live next to you because in a bad situation you are certain to panic and set off a barrage of high powered gunfire that both endangers your family and mine. Please before you start spouting off about something you obviously know little about, get informed. Please take a home defense firearm class before you kill somebody.

^

Have you ever talked to people who did this? No, i dont suppose you have.. And you consider a 1911 a "barrage of high powered gunfire"? Its pretty hard to judge someone youve never met. As i stated, a .22 will kill a man, these men are very well trained, if you shoot them in the correct spot, it will not kill them. Dont argue facts, If you do the research i am very sure you will find the statement i made is very true, as im sure the vets i know arent lying to me. Dont tell me i know little about this either, you have no idea what i know, who i am, anything, so please, dont tell me that i obviously dont knwo anything about the human body, or how a firearm or bullet reacts when it htis flesh. I am not going to kill sombody with my apparent lack of knowledge or my, "cowboy like tactics". I have never taked a home saftey course, Im not a fool.

[Laxplayer201092]

We call .22's cop killers because if for some reason you get hit anywhere other than your trauma plate and that bullet pierces skin it bounces around in the body (rare to see an exit wound with a .22) and shreds your organs. I agree that a .22 does not have much immediate stopping power but to say it isn't deadly is ignorant.

I never said they wouldnt kill.. i said that if a man enters your home, he is on an adrenilane rush i woul think, an a bullet that does not put him down, will probobly not do you much good. If you shoot a man, and he keeps fighting, not much good has been done. Even larger bullets, such as the .38, may lack stopping power against a druggie, or someone who is just on adreniline. During the hostage takedown in mogadishu, the GSG9 commander fired 6 rounds into a terrorist. He continued to fight. all i am saying is that a .22 is not a viable source for home defense.

[EquipmentJunkie]

So your telling me that the only means of defence i should have for my home is a .22 which wont kill a man?

I never said they wouldnt kill..

Hello? This thing on? Don't forget about the quote feature Brian while you back track. There is a difference between upholding the right to bear arms and being an extremist, you sir are an extremist and you will one day get someone hurt if not yourself. And since you brought up me not having any confidence in my weapons though my life depends on them I will teach you a little about police work because you obviously know nothing. My best weapon, my best line of defense that saves lives everyday is my mouth, this has and will continue to prevent more crimes than my duty weapon ever will. Does this mean I will give up my duty weapon? No, but the gun doesn't make the cop.

[Laxplayer201092]

Junkie, of all ppl you surely must know there is a difference between dropping a man and a man dying later of his wounds. My apologies, i did get a bit mixed up there.

Im well aware that the best way to handle a situation is not to just shoot him. Thats not what this thread was about, my main post was just to talk about firearms, and now its turned into a debate about firearms and their legality, and effectiveness.

How are my "extremist" views (which i am not quite sure how that falls in this category, i know i am an extremist when it comes to things like foreighn policy, but thats a different story) going to get me killed?

Im sure all of the unarmed cops in Europes greatest weapon is also their mouth..

[iacas]

We call .22's cop killers because if for some reason you get hit anywhere other than your trauma plate and that bullet pierces skin it bounces around in the body (rare to see an exit wound with a .22) and shreds your organs. I agree that a .22 does not have much immediate stopping power but to say it isn't deadly is ignorant.

A lot of assassins will use a .22 because they're quieter and they'll get through the skull once, but then they'll lack the energy to get out, so they'll just bounce around inside the skull for awhile shredding the brain.

[NM Golf]

I never said they wouldnt kill.. i said that if a man enters your home, he is on an adrenilane rush i woul think, an a bullet that does not put him down, will probobly not do you much good. If you shoot a man, and he keeps fighting, not much good has been done. Even larger bullets, such as the .38, may lack stopping power against a druggie, or someone who is just on adreniline.

Oh so you are now an expert on stopping power. Chances are the person breaking into your house is not this person you speak of. In fact I would guarantee 99% of home invasions are not anyone hopped up on pills. Your average everyday burgler will quite easily be stopped by a well placed .22 bullet. But then again maybe you can't shoot. You then sir should probably have a nice .410 or 20 gauge. You can miss your target to your hearts delight yet still keep your family alive and the neighbors dog too.

During the hostage takedown in mogadishu, the GSG9 commander fired 6 rounds into a terrorist. He continued to fight. all i am saying is that a .22 is not a viable source for home defense.

You are that guy who buys soldier of fortune aren't you. You are so gung ho. You are speaking of extremes again. 9 out of 10 times that same guy is toast on the first hit.

I have never taked a home saftey course, Im not a fool.

I have, several in fact. And the first thing they would tell a person like yourself is home defense is not about ego. Its not about the size of the gun its about learning to use your gun so that noone innocent gets hurt. Its called home defense. Your first initiative should be to protect your family. You go with the odds. The odds say your are very unlikely to need more than a small caliber weapon to stop a home intruder. The odds are high you will miss especially in a stessful situation like finding an intruder in your home. That means you use the caliber and load least likely to harm an innocent person in your home by penetrating the walls. You are a fool if you believe these things you write about. They go against everything a home defense specialist would tell you.

[Laxplayer201092]

ok, so lets take this tick for tick..

1) a home invasion is a stressful thing, i doubt that anyone can htit heir target all the time under those conditions (i saw an article that trained police officers only hit their mark some 50% of the time IIRC)so a "well placed" .22 is not going to be effective as it wont be placed well enough to do anything.

2)No, i have never bought soldier of fortune. Sir, i can only say that you prepare for the extremes.

3) i am well aware that a 5.56 round fired from my AR is traveling at some 2,000 FPS. that will go through my wall, the door, and into my neightbors house. WHich is also why i would use the 1911, .45 slugs go around 850 FPS if i remember correctly, and i know of a police officer not far from here who was shooting at a suspect, and his .45 rounds failed to penetrate the metal part on a screen door. Odds are nothing more than what is likely to happen, and although one outcome may occur more often than the other, the lesser likely (and in this case, more deadly) will eventually happen. Thats what you must prepare for. The scope from the place i would be firing from in my room puts absolutly no one in harm except the intruder. IT is a downward shot from my room to the stairs, meaning no neighbors could be hit, no one else could be hit in my home, no matter what room i am in, there are alot of walls between them that the .45 simply wont penetrate. Hmm, seems as if ive thought this out doesnt it? As if im not nearly the fool you portray me as. So again, ia sk you too keep your thoughts to yourself regarding my knoledge of home defence and my familys saftey.

Have a nice day.

Brian.

[NM Golf]

Okay cowboy I should have known you were a teenager by your belief you are always right.

You are a baby you're still wet behind the ears. Obviously you've never taken a class you are not old enough.

Well good luck to you hopefully you don't fail any psych evaluations on your way into the marines.

[Laxplayer201092]

First, i am not a cowboy, i dont own the boots..kidding.

But really, how does the fact that im a teen ager change anything here? does the fact taht your old change my opinion at all? no, it doesnt.

Baby? im 16..Ever heard of a place called frontsite?

I dont belive that im always right, if you can prove me wrong, by god, ill change my opinion, but in your argument, i fail to see how any of the points you make are any better than any of the points i make..

[The Rambler]

. Even the military doesn't use fully automatic weapons ... The only full auto weapons are the M240 and the M249, both of which are used as suppressive fire weapons, not used to take out point targets.

Ok first off that's not true. What about the MP5, M1A1, M4? All are in use by some branch of the armed forces

[Laxplayer201092]

The mp5 is not an issued firearm to all branches, it is a selected firearm used by spec ops, they can use whatever they want really. the M4 is also being phased in in very small number, but the vast majority of troops use A4's.

the m1 is a weapon of yesteryear, im assuming you mean the m1a1 carbine that is, and it was only modified to full auto in the korean war. also rambler, my circa is for sale if your still intrested..

[iacas]

1) a home invasion is a stressful thing

So is hitting a golf shot on the 18th hole with $500 on the line. Some people can handle it, though, and from what I'm reading you're not one of them.

The first thing I'm doing if I should ever hear someone in my house is to yell out that I've got a firearm and I know how to use it. 90% of the time, the guy's leaving that instant. Burglars are by their very nature cowardly - they've messed up by robbing you when you're at home. If the guy doesn't leave, I might even shoot through a wall somewhere. 90% of the time if he hasn't left yet, he will then since he knows you're serious. I've taken some personal safety and home safety classes too. I know what do. Stress can be beaten by preparation. I'm prepared. You're a kid. I don't know what your family situation is, but at this point in your life it's your parents' job to protect you and your home, not yours.