Post No. 1,627 on bad golf etiquette...

[JessN16]

Played one of the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail courses today in Alabama (Prattville -- Capitol Hill complex, Legislator course) and ran into what I think may be the worst example of not knowing the etiquette I've seen in a while.

From about hole No. 3 on, we followed a foursome made up of two younger guys who looked to be 20-25 handicappers like me, and then two beginners, one young and one older. RTJ courses are not my first choice for beginner golf, but it's their money, not mine.

These guys were slow enough, however, that a foursome walking had gone through them earlier in the day. I watched these guys hit approach shots into 14 or 15 greens today and never repair a ball mark (I think I repaired two dozen besides the ones I was leaving). But as you might guess, play was slow.

We finally pulled right up to their bumper on the backside after hanging back, because rain was coming and we had to get the round in. Probably a half-dozen times, they'd be in the fairway hitting three or four shots each, would look back at us, with basically a "Yep, they're still back there" look on their face. Never offered to let us go through and they had at least one clear hole in front of them.

So it came to a head on the around No. 14, when we got to the tee just as they were leaving. Here's how the conversation went:

Them: "Hey, how are you doing?"
Me: "Fine. By the way, do you mind if we pla........"
Them: "See ya!"

And they took off.

So we got the phone number of the pro shop off the scorecard and called it, and asked for a marshal. One thing you can say about RTJ courses, they're very responsive -- we had a marshal on our hole in less than 2 minutes, and this particular place has 72 holes of golf to oversee.

The marshal watched them hack up the fairway, then came to us and we told him what had happened. He said he would put them on the clock.

RTJ courses have GPS on the carts along with a computer program that tracks where you are (I've gotten buzzed by a marshal for going off the cart path on a cart-path-only hole before, when I didn't know we were path-restricted. Apparently they saw it back at the clubhouse.) and how much time you've spent on the course.

Well, the next hole, the marshal comes back to us and says, "Guys, I know you'd like to go through them but according to the computer, they're ahead of their pace, so we can't force them to let you through."

I'm not sure how I feel about that, but why not let us through voluntarily? &$*#@ slow play!

Jess

[Mr Eagle]

I dont understand the Marshals response,the pace of play is irrevalant,it is the responsibility of the group to keep up with the group in front.(rules of golf section 1 /etiqutte) quote; " If the group loses a clear hole and is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through"

Slow play is a pain,(and not exclusivly the ownership of high handicappers by the way),courses should point out a few ground rules to all players regarding keeping up with the group in front

[JessN16]

I dont understand the Marshals response,the pace of play is irrevalant,it is the responsibility of the group to keep up with the group in front.(rules of golf section 1 /etiqutte) quote; " If the group loses a clear hole and is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through"

I didn't understand it, either. I suspect they were trying to keep everyone as happy as possible (can't afford to lose business in this economy). When the marshal came back to tell us he couldn't force them to let us go through, he engaged us in conversation for about 5 minutes and you could tell he was trying to be Mr. PR about the whole thing.

I wouldn't have cared were it not for the rain that was chasing us. Fortunately we got off the course literally 1 minute before the deluge opened up. Jess

[misty_mountainhop]

My sympathies, particularly with the lack of pitchmark repair; I hate that.

I dont understand the Marshals response,the pace of play is irrevalant,it is the responsibility of the group to keep up with the group in front.(rules of golf section 1 /etiqutte) quote; " If the group loses a clear hole and is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through"

Absolutely right. Incidentally, the R&A; quotes:

"As a guide, generally two-ball rounds should take no more than 3 hours 10 minutes; three-balls should take no more than 3 hours 30 minutes, and four-balls no more than 3 hours 50 minutes. In fact, shorter round times than these should be the aim of all players, where appropriate." I can almost never get around in under 4 hours these days, even in a two-ball; one of the banes of the modern game. Nothing will change as long as Marshals don't do their job properly either.

[Fourputt]

I dont understand the Marshals response,the pace of play is irrevalant,it is the responsibility of the group to keep up with the group in front.(rules of golf section 1 /etiqutte) quote; " If the group loses a clear hole and is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through"

While I sympathize with the OP, this is a common policy. The course I work and play at has a "time to play" policy, and if a group is within the limit, then the course assistant can only request that they try to keep up, but not take any other action. I've long been opposed to such a policy, but I don't have any authority there, so I'm stuck with it. Most courses with such a policy only take action if the group has dropped behind the projected time for their place on the course.

The problem with playing through in such a case (assuming the the course is full behind them) is that the log jam just gets moved, not relieved. The OP's group may get to finish faster, but it can actually have the effect of delaying the slow group even more (while they wait for you to get out of the way), causing other following groups to have a worse situation than what you are getting away from. Consider too that the fact that you are fast doesn't necessarily make them slow. When a course is busy, you have to accept that an exceptionally fast group is probably going to spend time waiting (been there, done that). Knowing that these guys, bad as they were, are still within the course's guidelines, I'd have to say that you simply accept that you are in a very typical situation and you learn to live with it. Also, the course isn't responsible for changes in the weather. That is something that every golfer has to deal with as best he can.

[Chas]

Flame me if you wish, but I don't really see what the marshall could have done in that situation, if the group ahead of you was playing to the clock. Doesn't that imply that the group ahead of them was playing fast, rather than them being slow? For example, you can't expect a foursome to keep up with a twosome that has an open track in front of them.

Of course we all want the pace to pick up, and I always try to keep up with the group in front whenever possible. I usually play as a solo walk-on and sometimes find myself in a pretty slow group, i.e. one that drops behind the group in front. I try to gently speed my group up by encouraging 'ready golf' on the fairway but often this doesn't help much and I don't want to seem pushy out there. Some people spend a lot of time hunting for balls or just getting to their ball if it's cart-path-only like the last time I played.

It's a problem. Personally, I'd like to play on average about 25% faster. I don't have the answer.

[JessN16]

Flame me if you wish, but I don't really see what the marshall could have done in that situation, if the group ahead of you was playing to the clock. Doesn't that imply that the group ahead of them was playing fast, rather than them being slow? For example, you can't expect a foursome to keep up with a twosome that has an open track in front of them.

I left out what might be a crucial piece of info: I would understand if "playing to the clock" meant a four-hour round. But "proper time" at this particular golf course is something like 4.5 hours or more. If you set the clock that high, heck, anyone can get done inside the clock time.

I was raised by my father to let faster groups go through no matter how fast I was going myself, unless there were no open holes in front of me on the course and everyone was waiting. In fact, in this particular round, we had four guys behind us who were all playing like 2.0s and better. Really good golfers and very fast, faster than my group. They caught us twice while we were waiting for the group in front of us and I tried to send them through us, but once they saw what was happening ahead of my group, they declined. Jess

[Fourputt]

I left out what might be a crucial piece of info: I would understand if "playing to the clock" meant a four-hour round. But "proper time" at this particular golf course is something like 4.5 hours or more. If you set the clock that high, heck, anyone can get done inside the clock time.

Again, 4.5 hours isn't that unusual. Especially for a long, tough RTJ course. My home course sets the time at 4:20, and it is a far easier course than the one you were playing. I honestly think that you are setting your expectations too high in an age of courses crowded with less than expert golfers. If they allowed you through it would just about double the time it took them to play that particular hole, because then they'd have to wait on you. Then they face the same issue with the guys behind you, and then the group behind them, etc. When does it end? Especially when they were playing according to the course guidelines in the first place?

I'm not saying that it's right, but it's just how it is. When you play such a course you just about have to expect (or at least be willing to accept) what you experienced.

[smith5606]

Instead of hiding behind a "rule", good sense would seem to indicate that if there is a clear hole in front of you and a foursome is pushing up behind you, the right thing to do is let the group behind play through. The operative "rule" seems to me to start with the following - "do unto others...", IMHO.

[firstcut]

Again, 4.5 hours isn't that unusual. Especially for a long, tough RTJ course. My home course sets the time at 4:20, and it is a far easier course than the one you were playing. I honestly think that you are setting your expectations too high in an age of courses crowded with less than expert golfers. If they allowed you through it would just about double the time it took them to play that particular hole, because then they'd have to wait on you. Then they face the same issue with the guys behind you, and then the group behind them, etc. When does it end? Especially when they were playing according to the course guidelines in the first place?

I think Foutputt has it right. The average course is not your daddys track and the average golfer of today is not the same guy that played 20+ years ago. Almost every course I play is a 4.5 hour course these days. I don't know where this 113 average slope number comes from, but it's not on any course I've played in the past few years... Sometimes you're ahead and sometimes your behind. That's public golf.

As a side note I'd say that maybe they were only a half hole +/- behind the guys in front and there were times you just never saw it. Playing this weekend we had a four in front of us and sometimes we were right on them and sometimes they were half a hole ahead. The twosome behind us couldn't see that and was pushing us like we could do something about it. I wouldn't have let them through for $100.

[Chas]

Playing this weekend we had a four in front of us and sometimes we were right on them and sometimes they were half a hole ahead. The twosome behind us couldn't see that and was pushing us like we could do something about it. I wouldn't have let them through for $100.

This is typical of my own experience, i.e. you're between a rock and a hard place. But I do try to let clearly faster players through if my group is consistently running behind. I think that when this happens it's a good lesson for all concerned, i.e. there are sometimes

consequences to a group if it lags behind the pace, humble pie should be partaken of for the good of the sport. Happens pretty rarely though.