My Swing (TN94z)

[Jack Watson]

On your last video face on you finished on the left nicely.

Have you goofed around with a more forward ball position?

For myself trying to force my hips into some movement never worked for me.

If anything for me imagining my torso as a unit was more effective than thinking hips.  Anymore my focus is hands/clubhead.  It's funny but my body turns without needing attention.

Torso turn is very important imo not so much in terms of speed it can be very slow and steady as long as it continues to the finish.  For me trying to isolate a hip focus just made my action disjointed out of synch.

[TN94z]

11 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

On your last video face on you finished on the left nicely.

Have you goofed around with a more forward ball position?

For myself trying to force my hips into some movement never worked for me.

If anything for me imagining my torso as a unit was more effective than thinking hips.  Anymore my focus is hands/clubhead.  It's funny but my body turns without needing attention.

Torso turn is very important imo not so much in terms of speed it can be very slow and steady as long as it continues to the finish.  For me trying to isolate a hip focus just made my action disjointed out of synch.

Yes, and the ball position helped for sure. But with my hips not finishing the turn, it gets me stuck and I really think that's why I get the early extension which leads to flipping..yada, yada...It's like a snowball. The hip turn really shouldn't be a forced movement. I think the problem is I have played so long with the early extension (because when I initially started figuring the game out myself, I had no clue about proper hip turn) that it will just take time to get out of that habit. Does that make any sense at all?? Haha

[Jack Watson]

It absolutely makes sense.  I rewatched your face on a few times to kind of refresh my memory.

This is just a big Maybe now k?  It looks to me on that face on as if your natural move with the left leg is to extend it straight pre impact.  This raises the left shoulder a touch also but as you said once you do that the hips are in a fixed position and the club passes as your arms extend to impact.

Its your natural way to create speed in the clubhead imo.  There's d finitely cp force in that maneuver.

So if that maybe makes any sense or is right then second maybe is that maybe you focus on keeping flex in the left knee through impact while driving with the right shoulder.

Obviously the left leg should not be jello but you get the idea.

So basically another feel you could try is driving through with right shoulder while staying down.  The staying down part largely based on avoiding the early left leg to straight situation.

So my thinking is that this is the direction you would need to go to improve however I also think if you try it it will feel horrible.

imo pressure in the left foot does not mean you extend the leg as soon as you feel it.

I bet some video with no ball would really make it easier for you to capture the feel of it and then when you have captured the feel maybe you could return the ball and try to apply it.

It's very tough to communicate this stuff so if it's all gibberish just dump it. 

 

For you it would probably feel like you are smothering the ball with club horribly delofted.  Torso rotation imo need not be fast at all just steady if that makes sense.

Curious to hear your thoughts/reaction to these suggestions.

Edited April 22, 2017 by Jack Watson

[TN94z]

13 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I bet some video with no ball would really make it easier for you to capture the feel of it and then when you have captured the feel maybe you could return the ball and try to apply it.

It's very tough to communicate this stuff so if it's all gibberish just dump it. 

 

For you it would probably feel like you are smothering the ball with club horribly delofted.  Torso rotation imo need not be fast at all just steady if that makes sense.

Curious to hear your thoughts/reaction to these suggestions.

I was actually planning on doing this at home. I was going to practice the movements with no ball and get video just to see if I can even get the correct movement down when not trying to hit the ball. I can obviously get it with slow motion swings. If I can get it with no ball, then I'll add the ball back with some 1/4 swings, 1/2 swings, etc.....

[Jack Watson]

The other thing is imo its best not to drive the right shoulder down from the top.  I like this image of torso turn/shoulder turn.  Straightening the left all the way early will also tend to drop the right shoulder.  Technical types might argue that there's right side bend and extension or tilt switch nad that Watson is wrong that the spine angle does not change.  IMO Watson is correct in the feeling and what he shows is good for most golfers.

Also if the hips turn with the shoulders there's less spine twisting which I think is easier on the body.

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Jack Watson

[TN94z]

I have really been focusing on hip turn and exaggerating the hips open at impact. I meant to get some video today but my phone storage is full so I need to do some house cleaning on it. I "feel" like it is getting better and I can see an improvement in ball contact but I still have a ways to go. It's by no means, consistent. I am scoring much better though. I usually just have time for 9 in the evenings, but they have been in the 30s minus today's round of 41. This is WITH a SW that is killing me by at least 3 strokes a round. I do not know if I am trying to get cute with it or what, but from 100 and in, I am all of the sudden hitting them fat as crap. It's just a SW thing and on the course. On the range, I hit it pretty well. It also seems like I start off hitting it good, and then a few holes in, it gets fat. I'm not sure if I hit the first few good and it really gets me trying harder to dial in specific yardages or what. I just know it is getting frustrating. When I go out and shoot a 39 knowing that I left at least 3 strokes out there with my wedge (supposed to be my scoring club), it drives me NUTS!

[TN94z]

Got some video today only to see absolutely no change in the hips. Very frustrating. I ended up signing up at Evolvr and sending in the videos on Wednesday. I am awaiting my first review from them and then I'll go from there. The good news is I have a good separation from range to the course. I can hammer drills all day long and then go to the course and still score pretty descent. So I do have that....  I'm just so ready to get rid of this cramped up impact position with the flip and chicken wing that I cannot stand it.

[TN94z]

Played 18 today and it was terrible. My wedge (100 and in) game is just horrible right now. Added that with the fact that a slice crept into my drives and it made for a long day. Yep, I said SLICE!! I haven't sliced a ball in years now. And I could not get rid of it. I truly believe that I got so frustrated on the range because I couldn't seem to make solid contact on anything and I allowed that to carry over to the course. I ended up with a 44 on the front 9 and just used the back 9 to try and figure some things out unsuccessfully. Exclusively used my 3i off the tee on the last 14 holes just to get something in the fairway. Very frustrating day. I am still waiting on evolvr to get back with my first lesson.

[TN94z]

I'm thinking about getting a net and mat to work on my hip drills. Thoughts? I have typically stayed away from the nets because I like seeing the ball flight. But for my hip drills, it will mainly be impact and punch shots. So the ball flight isn't terribly important.

[Hardspoon]

25 minutes ago, TN94z said:

I'm thinking about getting a net and mat to work on my hip drills. Thoughts? I have typically stayed away from the nets because I like seeing the ball flight. But for my hip drills, it will mainly be impact and punch shots. So the ball flight isn't terribly important.

There have been several threads about this, but the gist of it is that a net is a perfectly good way to practice.  In some ways, it can be superior to actually seeing the ball flight, since you're more likely to focus on whatever you're working on rather than trying to "chase" a good shot or good flight.

So...if the reason you're hesitating is because you won't be able to see the ball flight with a net, go ahead and buy one.  You'll be better off.

Here - I found the thread:

 

[TN94z]

I remember that topic now. Thanks

[Jack Watson]

IMO if you are committed to changing something then remove the ball entirely and swing.  Use video profusely to check it out.  What good is topping and whiffing?  That's negative feedback when you might actually be doing better mechanically.  You might as well get rid of the ball.

When you acquire a feel and can make the motion you want then focus more on kissing the turf in a given spot.  When you can do that AND it looks how you want on video go ahead and reintroduce the ball sparingly and practice the feel often until you ingrain it.

The motion is the important thing.  To me if you want a big change the ball is a hindrance.  With no ball you ought to experiment seeing how flat or upright or in To out or out to in you can swing and then check it on video.  Like for me...I can swing flat but it's a radical departure in feel from my normal.  I only learned how radical by goofing around with video and no ball.  I learned a lot experimenting like that.

On nets...In my early teens I hung a canvas tarp between two trees.  I got to where I hit sweet  feeling shots with my blades but alas on the range it turned out I had grooved a slice.   Can you see five degrees difference in face angle on the typical video hitting into a mat?

All this takes quite a lot of time and effort but if you want to change I think it's much faster than trying to change while hitting balls.  

You need the feedback from the video like I used to say what I was doing before I made swings like flat as Hogan then do it or when I was too inside out I'd say over top on these and then check them out-this way you know what you were trying to get the result.  In this way I educated my senses.

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Jack Watson

[TN94z]

Well, what I'm working on wouldn't require full  shots and I am working on swings with no ball but I feel that without a ball, it's easy to make the swings you're trying to make. I think once you put a ball there, it messes with you mentally and makes it harder to make that same swing. I like having the ball there for much of my practices because of this. You can also feel good contact, which lets me know I have done something good to that point. And honestly, if I can hit into the net and make this hip turn and arm flex correction, the ball flight will end up better than it is now.  I say this because when I make what I feel is the right hip moves (even though it's a fraction of the correct move), I can see the much better ball flight, feel the more solid contact, and I feel how much less effort was in the swing. I can only imagine that getting my hips and arms where they should be, will dramatically increase those results. I see what you're saying though

[Hardspoon]

34 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

IMO if you are committed to changing something then remove the ball entirely and swing.  Use video profusely to check it out.  What good is topping and whiffing?  That's negative feedback when you might actually be doing better mechanically.  You might as well get rid of the ball.

The potential problem is that people tend to swing differently when there's no ball.  I agree that the mechanics are important, but you do want to put yourself in a position to make the same mechanical motions that you'll make when a ball is there.

6 minutes ago, TN94z said:

Well, what I'm working on wouldn't require full  shots and I am working on swings with no ball but I feel that without a ball, it's easy to make the swings you're trying to make. I think once you put a ball there, it messes with you mentally and makes it harder to make that same swing. I like having the ball there for much of my practices because of this.

I definitely agree with this.

I do think that many players would be better off if they could make their "no ball" swing when the ball is there, but that has to be learned with a ball...or you're not actually learning it.

[Jack Watson]

Well if it's easy to do it and you can repeat and make a divot or kiss the ground where you want without the ball there at speed then it should not differ at all when the ball IS there.  The feel should be the same you have to learn to trust it.

Thats tells me you may have a massive hit impulse or flinch problem.  IMO it's a golf stroke not hit and then tension you feel as you swing should differ little from practice swings at speed to swings with a ball at speed.  There's no 'hit' that you do at the ball.  You just make your swing and the ball gets in the way.  This issue screwed me for literally years and I never even knew it.

If the ball is creating the stallout raise up and flip it is a hit impulse or flinch and it's not a golf swing and will never be as consistent as a swinging motion.

In my experience as a hitter flinched the more balls you hit the worse it gets.  It's shocking what happens when you can put a stroke on the ball rather than a hit.  Way more consistent.

A good example would be a simple high pitch shot.  Ideally there's not tension or hand eye coordination hitting of the ball there.  You just swing with soft hands and the ball pops up.

Anyways good luck with it even if you choose to ignore my suggestions.  

In my swing thread the first one I put up I am still hitting not stroking.  It was tightening up through impact.

For me learning this singular concept has been very important.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

22 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

The potential problem is that people tend to swing differently when there's no ball.  I agree that the mechanics are important, but you do want to put yourself in a position to make the same mechanical motions that you'll make when a ball is there.

I definitely agree with this.

I do think that many players would be better off if they could make their "no ball" swing when the ball is there, but that has to be learned with a ball...or you're not actually learning it.

You have to learn to stroke the ball rather than try to hit it.  A stroke or swinging motion is a free motion.  There's not a point in it when something fires at something else.  There's just the arc of clubhead travel through the point where the ball is.  

Ernest Jones explains it best.  All the mechanics in the world are useless if you are flinching or hitting at it in my opinion.  You swing through to the finish smooth.  IMO that's all you can do.

[JonMA1]

@TN94z - I've suffered from what you're describing since I started to grasp the concept of the 5 keys.

What seemed to take little time to learn in the mirror without a ball took me a couple years to execute while inside hitting balls into a net. Once I got it, it became second nature... inside where it didn't really matter.

Sadly, I absolutely could not duplicate the weight shift while hitting outside for a couple more years. It was so maddening because of how easy it had become in the mirror and hitting into a net.

Just within the last few months, I've started to make slight progress with getting my weight over to my left side while hitting outside in the yard. I've yet to take video on the course to see if it's transferring there, but I think it is to some extent.

My point is, the inability to execute something that was so incredibly easy to do without a ball had me believing I was freakishly inept (well, I am inept but that's beside the point). That much failure started messing with my confidence.   

I hope @coachjimsc doesn't mind me sharing something from his swing thread, but realizing change can be difficult for others - even for very good players - helped me become less frustrated with my lack of results. I think in some way, this post may have helped get me over the hump....

 

[coachjimsc]

5 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I hope @coachjimsc doesn't mind me sharing something from his swing thread, but realizing change can be difficult for others - even for very good players - helped me become less frustrated with my lack of results. I think in some way, this post may have helped get me over the hump....

I don't mind at all @JonMA1.

I really glad it was useful for you. That was the purpose. Truly changing your swing is TOUGH.