Kenny Perry: Caught Cheating or Not?

[Trav]

I actually remember watching this at the time it happened and wondered why it was not a penalty. I know I would have been called on it at my club championship.

I notice the TGC talking heads last night said it was inconclusive. How much of this was because they really thought it was inconclusive, and how much was because no one wanted to open a headline against a nice guy well after the fact, who knows.

Surprised no one has followed up on Charley Hoffman's comment that everyone does it. I know he was trying to calm things down and take heat off Perry, but if this is what the pros do, then the rule should be re-written so we amateurs can have the same leeway. And think about the dubious value of a rule if there is an even split over whether it has been broken afte watching a fairly reasonable (i.e., close-up) replay.

If players like JP Hayes are going to be penalized/disqualified for (apparently inadvertently) changing balls during a round - with the result he loses his tour card - then I have a hard time seeing why Perry should not have been penalized.

[DaveLeeNC]

I actually remember watching this at the time it happened and wondered why it was not a penalty. I know I would have been called on it at my club championship.

You would have been "called on it" if it actually was what it appeared that it MIGHT BE from a very poor camera angle. If you look at the lie (re: the link referenced in this post) right after the 'event' (where KP may or may not have improved his lie) and then look at it from a different angle (the last 1 second of the referenced clip) they look like TOTALLY different lies.

Regarding why KP was not penalized - it was impossible. The issue wasn't raised until after the competition was closed. dave

[flanagan]

Look up Gary Player taking out a fairway wood, tamping down the grass behind his ball in the rough, and then "deciding" to switch to an iron once the back of the ball had been exposed due to the tamped down grass. Tom Watson

Not rushing to Player's defense, by any means, but the incident at the Skins Game was reported by a well known golf reporter who just happened to come upon Watson and Player after the round having a discussion. Watson's words were "I'm tired of this" (no profanity) and the accusation by Watson, which Player denied, was that Player had removed a rooted leaf (if so, not a loose impediment) before playing a shot. Watson did not want the conversation reported, but, having heard it, the reporter/columnist felt an obligation to run with it. Neither Watson or Player backed down from their positions. Later, in a book, Player accused Watson of using nonconforming clubs in winning a couple of majors.

I still remember Watson and Woosnam having an exchange at The Masters on a green where Watson appeared to be warning Woosnam about approaching a ball hanging on the lip too slowly. Woosie looked ticked off. I think this is when Woosie was en route to winning, in any event, they were playing together. I also remember Woosie seeming to make a point of sitting on the half log bench directly opposite, if not a bit in front of, Watson on the tee whenever Watson was teeing off, and not standing behind him on the tee. Appeared to be a little gamesmanship, but Watson never seemed to care, if he did care. I like Tom Watson and always have. He hasn't always filtered his remarks around his competitors, and has occasionally had a hair trigger on comments when he felt rules were being bent. The Skins Game incident has become one of those where it's been "quoted" one way for so long that the original flavor has been lost a bit. Given that he felt Gary had done something wrong, I liked the fact he was making an issue of it with Gary man to man after the round, and assuming it was a private conversation. I had never really read or heard about other alleged incidents involving Player until looking at some of what's out there, so glad the reference to that incident got me looking.

[klaymon]

How much of the surrounding grass constitutes the "lie"? If you press down grass 2" behind the ball are you improving the lie? 6" back"? Where is the line drawn? The last frame of the video looks to me like grass is undisturbed in the immediate area of the ball (3-4").

[bogeyhitter25]

I think that the video is inconclusive. I was watching the "19th Hole" last night, and Rex Hoggard was saying that he could've been 6 inches behind the ball with his club. I think they should've had more camera angles to determine the answer.

[iacas]

How much of the surrounding grass constitutes the "lie"? If you press down grass 2" behind the ball are you improving the lie? 6" back"? Where is the line drawn? The last frame of the video looks to me like grass is undisturbed in the immediate area of the ball (3-4").

I don't know if there's an actual definition in the RoG, but I would define it as the area directly near to the ball (left and right) and the area through which your club might travel when playing the shot.

The RoG also define the "area of your stance or swing" but that's kind of tangential or something to the "lie." You're not supposed to improve the "area of your stance or swing" either. It's all under Rule 13, but when people are talking about Perry potentially "improving his lie" then they're also including "the area of his stance or swing." They're all in the same rule.

[Three Putt]

Not rushing to Player's defense, by any means, but the incident at the Skins Game was reported by a well known golf reporter who just happened to come upon Watson and Player after the round having a discussion. Watson's words were "I'm tired of this" (no profanity) and the accusation by Watson, which Player denied, was that Player had removed a rooted leaf (if so, not a loose impediment) before playing a shot. Watson did not want the conversation reported, but, having heard it, the reporter/columnist felt an obligation to run with it. Neither Watson or Player backed down from their positions. Later, in a book, Player accused Watson of using nonconforming clubs in winning a couple of majors.

Gary Player just seems like a prick to me. "I am fitter than most 23 year old olympians , etc, etc,blah, blah.....blah"

Sure... he has done some good, just not the type a guy i would shotgun a beer with.

[M2R]

I don't know if there's an actual definition in the RoG, but I would define it as the area directly near to the ball (left and right) and the area through which your club might travel when playing the shot.

I think that is correct, whether he tapped down grass directly behind the ball or 12" away on a line his backswing would take, I would take it as a breach of rule 13.

This may give some insight into that although it is specific to taking a stance the the principal can be applied to "he area of his intended ... swing". 13-2/1 Explanation of “Fairly Taking His Stance” Examples of actions which do not constitute fairly taking a stance are:

• deliberately moving, bending or breaking branches with the hands, a leg or the body to get them out of the way of the backswing or stroke.

In my mind even if he was tapping something down and it was within the range of backswing or stroke it is a violation. In any case Feherty described the lie something like "there is a big clump of down grain grass behind the ball so I'm not sure he can get a sand wedge on it". Feherty played golf at a high level and is describing a pro golfer, does the last shot of the ball look like that description? Did the first shots somewhat resemble that statement (even though I agree the camera angle is bad)? And a question to all who commented on the lie of the ball in that last shot, exactly what angle are we seeing, the front, some side angle, or back? Note carefully the shadows and angles of the shadows. In this I have no confidence where it seems others somehow ascribe more weight to this view.

[iacas]

For those who don't think that the area he was improving was "near enough to his ball" to constitute "his lie," take a look at the longer video:



Note two things:

1) David Feherty talking about the huge "clump" behind his ball, and his subsequent speechlessness and stuttering as Perry taps down the clump (perhaps)

2) The position of the shadow near Kenny's right foot as he: a) taps down on the ground behind his ball, and b) eventually plays his shot. That his foot is in the same position implies that he tapped down right behind the ball, not a foot behind it or something like some want to claim.

[TheSpaceCowboy]

I think the best way to come to an opinion is to exaggerate the circumstances. To me, the blades of grass are no different than if it were cattails, or branches of a bush. The blades just happen to be smaller and flimsy. if he had walked up to his ball and started bending branches out of the way so that he could get to the ball cleanly, there would no doubt have been a penalty. So what's the difference? i guess he just got her "a little" pregnant.

[ajahn]

sure looks to me like he improved his lie, he is clearly giving his clubhead a better chance at cleanly striking the ball. He is not just grounding his club he is matting down the grass behind the ball.

[Chas]

IMO it's a blatant case of improving one's lie. The camera angle didn't change during the key sequence. He approaches the ball, which is indeed behind a big "clump" of grass, almost completely obscuring it from the camera lens. After Kenny tamps the clump down just ONCE the lens can see most of the ball, then he does it a few more times to make it look like he's "testing" the grass. Same for the extra swipes farther off the ball. As noted, all such grass "testing" should be done entirely AWAY from the ball.

What a twit, caught in the act. Doesn't he know there are cameras all around? Doesn't he care about his reputation? I suppose the money is more important for some guys ....

Disappointing.

[Laxplayer201092]

Kenny perry has now joined the club of golfers i hate, including;

Ian poulter
Gary Player

[bjw181]

Kenny perry has now joined the club of golfers i hate, including;

Don't forget Rory Sabbatini

[McGolf-Doggie]

I wouldn't feel good about doing that myself. He taps down 5 or 6 times and it seems to clear the swingpath at least to the extent that i makes the ball more visible and more hittable with less grass inbetween the ball and the swingpath.
Oh well. Doesn't seem like it fits with the spirit of the rules, but there are plenty who think otherwise.

[Laxplayer201092]

Don't forget Rory Sabbatini

Has Sabbo cheated?

oh, let me add the dude with the big hair.. ping staffer.. I mean i understand right before you hit the ball that you might place the club behind the ball, but to tap down, thats just nonsence.

[PEZGolf]

sure looks to me like he improved his lie, he is clearly giving his clubhead a better chance at cleanly striking the ball. He is not just grounding his club he is matting down the grass behind the ball.

It sure looks that way. I just read today's golf column by John Paul Newport in the "Wall Street Journal". He describes how two rules officials of the PGA Tour met with Kenny Perry on May 14 and they reviewed the tape. Their final determination was that he did not improve his lie, and no penalty was to be levied. Since it is their job to make the final decision, we have to abide by their decision. That is why there are rules officials to decide situations like this.

[iacas]

That is why there are rules officials to decide situations like this.

No, that's why we have the Rules of Golf, so golfers can follow them - and call penalties on themselves when appropriate - without the "need" for officials.

Officials are there to ASSIST players, not to enforce the rules. The onus of following the rules and being honest belongs on the players. This isn't football.