What causes a hook?

[Zeph]

Over the top does not directly cause a slice, but it can contribute to pulling the clubface open. That someone slicing adopts an out-to-in swing is reasonable, since the ball would starting left and sometimes curve back on the fairway, depending on the angle of the clubface. An out-to-in swing and severly open clubface will push it straight right, which often happens to high handicappers. They don't have the impact, precision or speed to launch the ball in the direction of the swingpath and it bounce straight right. Not uncommon to hit the ground behind the ball first, lose a lot of power and opening the clubface even more.

[timwalsh300]

A, yes it does because an out to in swingpath imparts spin on the ball . Just like in other sport the club face dragging from right to left puts left to right spin *facing ball* on the ball making it slice. Same thing happens in tennis, pingpong baseball. The racquet can be perfectly square but if it is moving in a direction it imparts spin curving the ball in the opposite direction.

When you say "dragging" you are assuming that the club face is now opening relative to the swing path. So you aren't simply swinging out-to-in anymore.

It is perfectly possible to swing out-to-in and still have the club face be square relative to the swing path (therefore launching the ball straight down the line of the swing path... a pulled shot). Nothing about swinging left causes the club face to be open (relative to the swing path). Those are two entirely separate issues. Again, we are just acclimated to seeing these things happen together because the combination of the two will allow the ball to curve toward the target. Thus we confuse causation and correlation. Tim

[Williamevanl]

No I'm not really because it doesn't have to be open relative to the swing path. Throw a bouncy ball at a treadmill, the treadmill will be square to the target line coming right back at you but it will obviously impart spin on the ball.

I understand that swing from out to in doesn't have to open the face but it does impart slice spin on the ball.

Oh and this is the reason why slick cover golf balls or putting vaseline on the club face stops the ball from slicing or at least minimizes it.

I think your confusion comes from the fact that you can close the face and effectively fight the affect of the spin that is imparted resulting in a straight pull. So you think that they are completely independant of each other. They aren't, the same force that pulls the ball left imparts spin on the ball also.

[Zeph]

A, yes it does because an out to in swingpath imparts spin on the ball . Just like in other sport the club face dragging from right to left puts left to right spin *facing ball* on the ball making it slice. Same thing happens in tennis, pingpong baseball. The racquet can be perfectly square but if it is moving in a direction it imparts spin curving the ball in the opposite direction.

It will put spin on the ball, but not so much as a clubface open relative to the target line. The general idea is that the ball comes down where the clubface is aimed at impact. The direction of the swing simply make the ball fly out on a different path than the clubface is aimed, if both are not equal of course.

Out to in swingpath and square clubface will launch the ball to the left initially, but the open clubface will put spin on the ball and curve it back onto the target line, which is what the clubface was aimed at during impact. If you hit a shot that starts out straight and curves severly to the right, you can be sure the clubface was really open. With slightly open clubface it will not spin as far to the right. Which is how a fade works. You swing inside the target line and aim the clubface directly at the target either by changing the grip or holding the release off. This is why people can effectively shape the ball, they know that where the clubface aims is where the ball will come down. You can shape shots with any type of club, from wedge to driver, but as Erik said, the ball will start out closer to the clubface angle the higher lofted club you use. Tiger f.i. shapes his approach shots with shorter irons to play up the wind or find a good line on the green.

[Williamevanl]

Over the top does not directly cause a slice, but it can contribute to pulling the clubface open. That someone slicing adopts an out-to-in swing is reasonable, since the ball would starting left and sometimes curve back on the fairway, depending on the angle of the clubface. An out-to-in swing and severly open clubface will push it straight right, which often happens to high handicappers. They don't have the impact, precision or speed to launch the ball in the direction of the swingpath and it bounce straight right. Not uncommon to hit the ground behind the ball first, lose a lot of power and opening the clubface even more.

You are wrong too, an out to in swingpath with a severly open clubface doesn't cause a push straight right at all it causes a pull slice. An in to out swing path with a square face will cause a push straight right.

I understand how to work the ball but amatuers think about it in terms of severe opening and closing of the face. If you think about it a pro can hit a draw by coming pretty far inside with his swing path creating some right to left movement with the path alone. If it was all as simple as just making sure the face was square, you could fix someones slice by just rotating the club closed in their hands. Its not that simple obviously, some fight a slice their whole life knowing that an open face causes a slice. Swingpath also has to be corrected to avoid slicing on a consistent basis.

[Zeph]

No it doesn't. The slice (or a shot going right of the target) is only caused by the open clubface. You can swing in any direction you want, with a square clubface the ball will curve back to that target line. That's why many people play what they call a "natural fade", which simply is a swing coming over the top where the player manage to keep the clubface square.

I am not wrong about the straight right shots. I'm not talking about a perfectly hit golf shot, but one with so little speed and so severly open clubface that the ball takes out straight right. I've seen it happen many times, even with swings coming over the top. A clubface really open and with little speed, often hitting the ground first, can send the ball straight out right. Like Erik commented eariler about a driver being 30 degrees open relative to the swingpath and target line. The ball won't start out 30 degrees, unless you hit it with very little speed, but it certainly won't start straight either. The force moving the ball forward is not enough compared to that caused by the angle of the clubface pushing the ball right to send it out straight.

On a faded shot, the ball will start where you swing and come down where the clubface was aimed because of the spin created by the differential between the clubface and swingpath. It may not go straight out where it was hit, but approximately. With lower speed or larger differential between the swingpath and clubface angle, the club won't be able to give the ball enough force forward to launch it approx. in the path of the swing, so the ball will start off more right of the swingpath to the point where it just bounce straight right. At that point, it won't have much spin either.

[iacas]

It will put spin on the ball, but not so much as a clubface open relative to the target line.

Point of clarification: the ball doesn't know where the target line is. It knows swing path and face angle, and it only knows those relative to each other.

An open clubface 5 degrees with a square swing path is the same thing, to the ball, as a swing path 5 degrees out-to-in with a square clubface (with minor differences for the change in effective loft). Be careful the language you use in these types of discussions. "Open" and "closed" relative to what" - you have to ask yourself that and be precise. Here's an example of how easily it is to confuse things:

Out to in swingpath and square clubface will launch the ball to the left initially, but the open clubface will put spin on the ball and curve it back onto the target line, which is what the clubface was aimed at during impact.

Both a square and an open clubface in that one - relative to different things.

Just be careful with the terminology. It's easy to unintentionally mislead.

[iacas]

No it doesn't. The slice (or a shot going right of the target) is only caused by the open clubface. You can swing in any direction you want, with a square clubface the ball will curve back to that target line.

That's not quite true. It's only true within a narrow range.

Come over the top and swing outside-in 25 degrees and the ball might start a little bit left, but it's gonna slice more than it starts to the left and will end up slicing well right of the target line. And that's with a square clubface. Those ball flight laws only work from about a 5-iron down and within a narrow face/path differential of about 5-10°. Beyond that, and face angle (in this case, WAY open relative to the swing path but square to the target) starts to take over.

[Williamevanl]

I agree and disagree with what you are saying Zeph. Here's why... *Advanced stuff*

To hit a draw, the tour pro will either adjust the face angle or the path so that the face angle at impact is from 1 to 2 degrees closed to the path. Since face angle is more of a determining factor in initial ball direction than clubhead path (80% vs. 20%); the tour pro will almost always keep the face angle square to the target and swing from 1 to 2 degrees inside out. This starts the ball slightly right of the target and the balls slight draw spin curves it back toward the target.

We are talking about 1 degree of closed or open. * I doubt you could even see a difference. If you try to work that in by closing or opening the face you are going to run into problems. The basic point here is that swing plane can effectively cancel the affects of face angle. But its on the order of 4:1.

So technically you can still see people slice with a square and yes even closed club face. *If they come to far over the top* Think one degree closed to the target line and 5 degress from the outside in with the swing path.

There's a lot of confusion here Iacas, you run a golf forum and I'd say you're a reliable source so can you clear all this up for us?

[Zeph]

Be careful the language you use in these types of discussions. "Open" and "closed" relative to what" - you have to ask yourself that and be precise. Here's an example of how easily it is to confuse things:

Let me define my words then:

Swingpath = the way the club swings, square, out-to-in or in-to-out Target line = straight ahead against the target Open = open relative to the target line Closed = closed relative to the target line Anything else would certainly be misleading if you talked about clubface open relative to both target line and swingpath.

[Zeph]

So technically you can still see people slice with a square and yes even closed club face.

It all depends on how many degrees you come out-to-in or in-to-out. Of course, with a huge angle here, you'll put spin curving to the right with any clubface position open relative to the swingpath, but I'm looking more for the normal amount of f.i. coming over the top. The shape is defined by the clubface angle which is relative to the swingpath. If you swing from 30 degrees out-to-in with a clubface 15 degrees shut, you'll put left to right spin on the ball. If you narrow that angle from 30 to 0 degrees, you'll shape the shot less and less to the right to the point where it goes straight and from there starts curving to the left.

We're talking about the same thing, but in different degrees I think, which definately is a huge factor on determining the shape of the shot. I'm sorry if I've been unclear.

[Williamevanl]

Yep and thats why golf is so hard... Excerpt...

With a two degree open club face the following will happen:
If you path is more than two degrees from the inside to the outside you will get a hook.
If your path is two degrees inside to outside you'll get a straight shot.
If your path is less than two degrees inside to outside you'll get a slice. (If you path is one degree inside to outside you will get a very slight slice (fade). The more outside to inside your swing path becomes the bigger your slice will be. If you had a 3 degree outside to inside swing path you'd have a pretty good banana ball. How much will your ball will slice in each of the above examples can be pretty well estimated with the "Rule of Seven".

http://simpleswing.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~568.asp

So there you go in the above example you can have a club face that is open to the target. But You come from really far inside *which is what really good golfers do* and you end up with a hook. Same thing goes for a slice and its really easy for people to get way over the top.

So my point is you can close the face all you want but if you can't learn that incredibly difficult move of getting the club in from the inside you can't hit consistent shots.

[iacas]

Since face angle is more of a determining factor in initial ball direction than clubhead path (80% vs. 20%) ... But its on the order of 4:1.

I don't think those numbers are accurate at all. I know for certain that the relationship doesn't remain the same, a steady 4:1, and for most times when we're trying to hit draws or fades, it's probably closer to the opposite.

So technically you can still see people slice with a square and yes even closed club face. *If they come to far over the top* Think one degree closed to the target line and 5 degress from the outside in with the swing path.

That's an open clubface relative to the swing path. And the ball will start well to the left in that case - much more than 1 degree left. More like 4.5+.

There's a lot of confusion here Iacas, you run a golf forum and I'd say you're a reliable source so can you clear all this up for us?

I have already, haven't I?

[Williamevanl]

It all depends on how many degrees you come out-to-in or in-to-out. Of course, with a huge angle here, you'll put spin curving to the right with any clubface position open relative to the swingpath, but I'm looking more for the normal amount of f.i. coming over the top. The shape is defined by the clubface angle which is relative to the swingpath. If you swing from 30 degrees out-to-in with a clubface 15 degrees shut, you'll put left to right spin on the ball. If you narrow that angle from 30 to 0 degrees, you'll shape the shot less and less to the right to the point where it goes straight and from there starts curving to the left.

I wasn't really talking about huge angles either. A couple degrees can go a long way in the golf swing so much so that it's scary when you see the numbers on how 3 degrees makes you miss the target by X amount of yards.

I don't think those numbers are accurate at all. I know for certain that the relationship doesn't remain the same, a steady 4:1, and for most times when we're trying to hit draws or fades, it's probably closer to the opposite.

I didn't make those numbers up, they are on the internet which is slightly better.

What is the ratio then? Wait read it again, Iacus I think you read it as 80% path 20% Face angle but thats not what it says.

[iacas]

But You come from really far inside *which is what really good golfers do* and you end up with a hook.

"really good golfers" do not come "really far [from the] inside." They strike the ball pretty squarely, on a swing path that's square or very close to square.

They come from the inside, but at the moment of impact their club path is square. You're arguing, William, but nobody's disagreeing with you. You're just using (or misusing) different terms for "open" or "closed." The easiest frame of reference for those is relative to the swing path. Otherwise, you end up with discussions like the one you're having almost by yourself: that you can hook a ball with an open clubface, or slice it with a closed one. That only works if you're still stuck on a target line reference system.

I didn't make those numbers up, they are on the internet which is slightly better.

The ratio changes. Again, for smaller degrees of difference (5-10°) between face angle and club path, high enough swing speeds, and low enough loft, the swing path has more effect on the starting direction of the ball than the clubface angle.

Wait read it again, Iacus I think you read it as 80% path 20% Face angle but thats not what it says.

I don't think you're making any sense. It's incredibly silly to think that the ratio holds at anything consistently.

As for what affects the starting path, I've been rather clear, and I was in this same post too. Hopefully my final post in this topic: What causes a hook? A clubface closed relative to the swing path. If it's a little, it's a draw. If it's a lot, it's a hook. That's all there is to it.

[Williamevanl]

I mean really far inside relative to regular golfers. You can take any pro and compare there plane position to 200 people over on swingacademy and instantly notice that they start the club a lot further on the inside.

Alright now you are making me sound crazy! :)
I think terms like open to the swing path seems crazy because people are generally looking at the club position at address.

And I didn't come up with any of this information, I just posted it because it seems very counter intuitive.

Oh and the guy that wrote all of the 80/20 business is from http://www.ralphmaltby.com/meetralph He has been a golf engineer for 40 years so it seems like a reliable source.

[timwalsh300]

I think your confusion comes from the fact that you can close the face and effectively fight the affect of the spin that is imparted resulting in a straight pull. So you think that they are completely independant of each other. They aren't, the same force that pulls the ball left imparts spin on the ball also.

There is no confusion on my part.

You seem to be saying that a ball will actually spin simply because the alignment of your feet does not match your swing path - as if the ball or the club knows which way your feet are aiming. Side spin (curved ball flight) only occurs if the angle of the club face is not square (90*) relative to the swing path. That is all the ball knows. And these are indeed independent of each other, as well as independent of the alignment of your feet. Tim

[Williamevanl]

Hmm I thought there was no argument What about my treadmill and bouncy ball analogy. After all I posted.. I'm saying even with a club face square relative to the swing path the movement of the club coming from the inside will impart spin on the ball. The club head is moving both vertically and horizontally in space I don't care how square the face is, you will still get spin from those movements.

I guess if we are talking perfect plane and perfect square face then yea no side spin but if you are coming from the inside or outside, spin.