Rules question: Ball lost in lateral water hazard behind green

[Zeph]

Say you got a hole with a lateral water hazard immediately behind the green What are your options if you hit the ball into this hazard?

If the ball do not cross on the furthest point from the hole, can you drop within 2 club lengths as long as you don't drop closer to the hole than the point where the ball crossed the hazard?

If you did cross at the furthest point from the green and can not drop within 2 club lengths without getting closer to the hole, do you have to hit a new ball from the place you hit the last shot?

Should hazards like that have a dropping zone?

What if you have water in front of the green, f.i. on an island green. You hit the tee shot, lands on the green or fringe, but spin or roll back into the water. Can you drop within 2 club lengths, or, if you are at the furthest point, have to hit a new ball?

A ball that never reach shore, but lands in the water half a yard from land, I suppose you have no option but to hit a new or drop a new one no closer than as close as you get to the water on the side where you took the shot from.

[Jenks465]

There are three available options if you hit into a lateral water hazard
1) Play another ball from the original spot
2) Drop behind the hazard keeping the spot where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between you and the hole
3) Drop within two club lengths of where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard or a spot on the opposite side of the hazard that is equidistant from the hole.

Without seeing the individual circumstances it's difficult to say what you can or can't do but just do what seems fair and youll be ok.

[Ignorant]

Say you got a hole with a lateral water hazard immediately behind the green What are your options if you hit the ball into this hazard?

Yes, Rule 26-1c.

If you did cross at the furthest point from the green and can not drop within 2 club lengths without getting closer to the hole, do you have to hit a new ball from the place you hit the last shot?

Yes, Rule 26-1a. Or if the course extends behind this water hazard one can also drop behind the hazard, Rule 26-1b.

Should hazards like that have a dropping zone?

In my opinion, yes.

What if you have water in front of the green, f.i. on an island green. You hit the tee shot, lands on the green or fringe, but spin or roll back into the water. Can you drop within 2 club lengths, or, if you are at the furthest point, have to hit a new ball?

Normally this kind of water hazard is not a lateral one so one must follow Rule 26-1b or c.

A ball that never reach shore, but lands in the water half a yard from land, I suppose you have no option but to hit a new or drop a new one no closer than as close as you get to the water on the side where you took the shot from.

Precisely.

Rule 26-1 . . . a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

[microcrayfish]

I think you'll find that most times there will be a drop zone if there's water behind the green.

[tjy355]

...If the ball do not cross on the furthest point from the hole...

I'm confused by the terminology you are using: "furthest point" ?

[Zeph]

I'll explain.
Look at the picture.

The ball to the left has no place to drop since there are no dry areas within 2 club lengths that are not closer to the hole. "The furthest point from the hole" is perhaps a bad term, "no place to drop within 2 club lengths that is not closer to the hole" would be better.

The ball to the right has an area (pink) to the left of it where you are within 2 club lengths and not closer to the hole.

My conclusion was that you can drop within the purple area, but when you have landed or rolled out on a place like the left ball is situated, your only option is to hit a new ball from where you shot or drop in a drop zone if such exist.

If a dropping zone exist, do you have to use it or can you drop the ball if you have the option, like the ball to the right? If so, does this have to be stated in the local rule, or is it written in a general rule?

[RemyM]

http://www.usga.org/Album.aspx?id=24018#show=7855

[iacas]

If a dropping zone exist, do you have to use it or can you drop the ball if you have the option, like the ball to the right? If so, does this have to be stated in the local rule, or is it written in a general rule?

You're never forced to use a drop zone. If you have options, you can use any of them, and since you always have the option to re-hit from the original spot, you can't ever be forced into taking one option.

It's usually when "hit again from the tee" is the only option that a course will PROVIDE a drop zone so that you, again, have an option.

[Ignorant]

You're never forced to use a drop zone

Bolded is not completely true. The Committee is in fact in the position to rule that a player MUST use a dropping zone (see ROG, App. I, Part B, 8):

If the Committee considers that it is not feasible or practicable to proceed in accordance with a Rule providing relief, it may establish dropping zones in which balls may or must be dropped when taking relief .

[iacas]

If the Committee considers that it is not feasible or practicable to proceed in accordance with a Rule providing relief, it may establish dropping zones in which balls may or must be dropped when taking relief .

That rule is used for mandatory relief from TIOs, grandstands, etc. I've never seen it used for a water hazard, and I don't think the USGA would ever, ever recommend that be the case. The very thing you cited said it shouldn't be used that way. Thus, in practice, the player always has the option to re-hit from the original position. 17th at Sawgrass, for example - a drop zone is available but it's not mandatory to play from there.

[Ignorant]

That rule is used for mandatory relief from TIOs, grandstands, etc. I've never seen it used for a water hazard, and I don't think the USGA would ever, ever recommend that be the case.

I agree, it should not. Unfortunately, I have been in a competition (in Europe) where this option was considered to be the only one by Local Rule and in my opinion the use of that kind of Local Rule is somewhat against the nature of the game.

However, in some rare cases a mandatory drop zone could be defended. In case the area where the ball should be dropped is very narrow and it would take unnecessary time and delay to measure the exact place to drop in order to avoid a ball to be dropped nearer to the hole. To go back for a re-hit would again delay the game and there would be no guarantee that the player would have better position for the ball. All in all, a Local Rule should not deprive a player of his basic rights, but as You mentioned those TIO's this may sometimes be the case.

[tjy355]

I'll explain.

OK, I understand. This issue was debated considerably in a recent thread.

I have not personally encountered this situation in recent memory, but the way I figured I would proceed, and I admit it may be stretching the rules, is to try to drop the ball right on the hazard boundary at the point of entry. By the rules, if it rolls closer to the hole, you must re-drop. If it rolls back into the hazard, you must re-drop. After two failed drop attempts, you can place the ball. By placing it right on the boundary of the hazard, you technically are no closer to the pin. Legitimate or cheating? Discuss.

[Ignorant]

OK, I understand. This issue was debated considerably in a recent thread.

Good question. I think it all comes to where exactly is 'the point where the ball last crossed the margin' located. Is this point

on the boundary line? If this is the case then I cannot see how the ball could be dropped (or placed) not closer to the hole and not in the hazard (the boundary line is part of the the hazard and a ball is in the hazard if it touches the hazard).

[iacas]

By placing it right on the boundary of the hazard, you technically are no closer to the pin. Legitimate or cheating? Discuss.

Source: Decision 26/1.5 Status of Ball That Touches Water Hazard and Another Part of the Course Q. A player's ball touches the line defining the margin of a water hazard but also touches another part of the course (e.g., a bunker or the putting green). On which part of the course is the player's ball considered to lie? A. The player's ball is considered to lie in the water hazard. (New)

[tjy355]

... try to drop the ball right on the hazard boundary at the point of entry. By the rules, if it rolls closer to the hole, you must re-drop. If it rolls back into the hazard, you must re-drop. After two failed drop attempts, you can place the ball. By placing it right on the boundary of the hazard, you technically are no closer to the pin. Legitimate or cheating? Discuss.

Source: Decision 26/1.5 Status of Ball That Touches Water Hazard and Another Part of the Course Q. A player's ball touches the line defining the margin of a water hazard but also touches another part of the course (e.g., a bunker or the putting green). On which part of the course is the player's ball considered to lie? A. The player's ball is considered to lie in the water hazard. (New)

Sounds like a no go. If the ball is dropped and ends up on the margin line, then it is considered in the hazard and must be redropped. If it is outside the margin line then it is closer to the hole.

Oh well, nice try...