sneaking on to course behind house

[kfowler]

OK, just to ask then, if you go to a grocery store and buy a steak, is it OK to help yourself to the garlic salt by slipping it in your pocket and not paying for it (since, that is, you DID pay for the steak)?

I don't see how this analogy relates to sneaking on a golf. What you're talking about is steeling. I think a better question would be if you went to the theater to watch a movie and hung around to watch it a second time without paying.

To answer your original question about playing an extra ball and such, no, I don't think there's anything wrong with it as long as the course doesn't specifically address it. If it does, then I'd respect the rule.

[Fat Slice]

I don't see how this analogy relates to sneaking on a golf. What you're talking about is steeling. I think a better question would be if you went to the theater to watch a movie and hung around to watch it a second time without paying.

OK, then, that's an interesting litmus test. If the golf course does not have any "no tresspassing" or "keep out" signs on boundaries of the hole that is adjacent to the guy's house, is he then free to walk on and play?

[iWALK18]

I continue to be amazed, and disappointed by the number of people out there who struggle with the most simple of ethical questions.

Ethical questions are actually not simple at all, ever. There is a reason philosophers have spent so much time obsessing about the subject. And all we are doing is going through the process of trying to draw the ethical line... nobody is "struggling". This IS the process you go through to establish ethical values in a culture.

[David in FL]

Ethical questions are actually not simple at all, ever. There is a reason philosophers have spent so much time obsessing about the subject. And all we are doing is going through the process of trying to draw the ethical line... nobody is "struggling". This IS the process you go through to establish ethical values in a culture.

There are some ethical questions that are very easy.......some not so.

Absent some overriding humanitarian issue or concern, taking something that doesn't belong to you, without payment or permission, is wrong, period. Sorry, but if you struggle with that concept, or cannot visualize that particular "line", you have a complete disconnect with the mores of modern, civilized society.

[kfowler]

OK, then, that's an interesting litmus test. If the golf course does not have any "no tresspassing" or "keep out" signs on boundaries of the hole that is adjacent to the guy's house, is he then free to walk on and play?

Ahh but do you have no tresspassing and keep out signs on your house?

[David in FL]

Ahh but do you have no tresspassing and keep out signs on your house?

Interestingly enough, the $20 bill in my pocket doesn't have a note on it saying "don't steal me from David" either.......

[Mr. M]

This isn't a question of ethics; it's a question of moral responsibility. If you are okay with the idea of being morally irresponsible, then sneak onto the course and play a few holes.

[mtsalmela80]

There are a lot of morally irresponsible things I have to put up with, thats just the way things are.

[trumps4]

Golf is a game of integrity, respect and self governance.

Bingo! Couldn't have said it better myself.

[golfaddiction]

I'm going to put myself on a line a little bit, but regardless of the laws, I have a lot of moral leeway with "victimless" crimes. You can argue that all crimes have a victim (e.g. yourself), but here are some examples. All these assume that nobody gets hurt, other than perhaps yourself, and no property is damaged:

1. Trespassing (on a golf course, cutting through somebody's yard)
2. "Soft" drugs, such as pot
3. Underage drinking (in a safe responsible way)

I don't want to start a raging moral debate, and I expect that everyone has different opinions on this. This is just my opinion - it's only illegal if you get caught

[Mr. M]

I'm going to put myself on a line a little bit, but regardless of the laws, I have a lot of moral leeway with "victimless" crimes. You can argue that all crimes have a victim (e.g. yourself), but here are some examples. All these assume that nobody gets hurt, other than perhaps yourself, and no property is damaged:

Morality transcends law. Plenty of things are morally irresponsible but not illegal. It comes down to right and wrong. Really, it's that simple. It's not right to take something that isn't yours. It's wrong. This is very much a black and white issue. If you don't mind doing something wrong, then do it. But don't rationalize. Enjoy the thrill. Fairways and greens.

[trumps4]

OK, so this is an interesting topic for sure. For those who say 100% it's wrong, and it would be criminal, and it shouldn't be done under any circumstances, let me ask this...

This made me laugh out loud. It is not even close to the same thing. I am a member of a semi-private golf club. I had to work and save for 3 years following college graduation in order to pay the initiation/certificate fee. Not once did I sneak onto the course without paying before I joined. This particular example is absurd because there is not a course owner anywhere that would tell a member he/she couldn't hit an extra ball on a slow day. That is part of what you are PAYING for.

I am really discouraged that so many fellow golfers believe someone is entitled to something for nothing because it "isn't a big deal" or "probably won't get caught." That is completely against the spirit of this great game. If you truly believe that what your doing is ok, then go ask someone in the club house and get permission to play that one hole. They may allow it or may not. Either way, I have no problem with someone asking for a hand-out rather than just taking something that doesn't belong to them because it "isn't a big deal."

[MonkeyClaw]

It seems everyone who is totally against this is only seeing it from one side. What about all of the golfers who tresspass onto someone's back yard to pick up their miss-hit balls (or just hit a ball there on accident and leave it there)? This is also tresspassing, but people do it all the time. Should these people also get in trouble? Charged by the cops with tresspassing or have to pay a fee to the home owners every time a ball goes there? Many of these golf courses are the ones who put the houses there in the first place, often as a source of income. It would be foolish for them to think that they could put a house there and expect no one is going to come out occasionally. I've even played at some courses that allow the neighbors to walk/jog the course for exercise and bring their dogs out to let them run (yes, while I was playing!!).

In my mind, there is a degree of reciprocity between the courses and the people who live on it such that neighbors won't call the cops every time a ball lands in their yard, and the course won't call the cops every time one of the homeowners/guests plays a hole or practices chipping/putting after hours (so long as no damage is done to the course).

[Mr. M]

This made me laugh out loud. It is not even close to the same thing. I am a member of a semi-private golf club. I had to work and save for 3 years following college graduation in order to pay the initiation/certificate fee. Not once did I sneak onto the course without paying before I joined. This particular example is absurd because there is not a course owner anywhere that would tell a member he/she couldn't hit an extra ball on a slow day. That is part of what you are PAYING for.

It bothers me as well. This is maybe the only sport that requires the player to keep his own score and record it in good faith. The very basis of scoring requires players to be honest.

Tell you what. Go to the clubhouse tomorrow morning and tell the pro that you aced number eleven last night after the course was closed, and you want your name on the plaque behind the counter. He'll either congratulate you or he'll cuss you out. There really isn't an in-between on this one.

[mtsalmela80]

Oh and for what it is worth, my girlfriends family regularly sees people urinating on her property. That is they leave the fairway, cross the chain into the brush, continue on to a tree on HER property, and urinate.

So if I was to say, get caught on the course, perhaps a little quid pro quo would be in order...

Never thought of this until just now, after that "what about balls hit onto their property" comment!

[trumps4]

It seems everyone who is totally against this is only seeing it from one side. What about all of the golfers who tresspass onto someone's back yard to pick up their miss-hit balls (or just hit a ball there on accident and leave it there)? This is also tresspassing, but people do it all the time. Should these people also get in trouble? Charged by the cops with tresspassing or have to pay a fee to the home owners every time a ball goes there? Many of these golf courses are the ones who put the houses there in the first place, often as a source of income. It would be foolish for them to think that they could put a house there and expect no one is going to come out occasionally. I've even played at some courses that allow the neighbors to walk/jog the course for exercise and bring their dogs out to let them run (yes, while I was playing!!).

Again, I am amazed. The "law" has nothing to do with this IMO. If we allow the law to point our moral compass then we are a much more messed up society than I thought. Yes, it is trespassing to walk into someone's yard without permission and yes it is trespassing to walk onto a private golf club without permission. However, I have no problem with a homeowner/guest stepping onto the course to pick up something that accidentally crossed over. The "law" may say this is wrong but I couldn't care less. If I hit a ball in the edge of someone's lawn, I will probably fetch it. So, I am guilty of breaking the law I suppose but I generally assume (until informed otherwise) that the homeowner would rather me pick up the ball so he/she doesn't mow over it. The point is that you do not take things that are not yours. That golf course sells golf as their product. If play without paying you are stealing. To me, stealing is morally wrong and I don't care if the "law" agrees or not. I cannot believe this is such a complicated concept.

[mtsalmela80]

This is the scenario. Notice the clubhouse and majority of course to the right, and notice hole circled on left, thats the hole in question.

[Mr. M]

Oh and for what it is worth, my girlfriends family regularly sees people urinating on her property. That is they leave the fairway, cross the chain into the brush, continue on to a tree on HER property, and urinate.

The golf club certainly doesn't condone urinating on the properties that line the course. You are going to rat out renegade pissers if you're caught stealing?

LOL... If I looked out the window and saw someone peeing in my yard, I'd be having words with that chap.