Swing w/arms, ball goes straighter

[Jackslap]

I can't figure myself out. I had TMO analyze my swing and he gave me some great tips. I feel much less strain in my back and hands due to his advice on keeping my spine straight, bending over more, and giving myself more room to make a proper inside/outside swing path. I've really felt better.

The problem is, I don't hit the ball any straighter. I still block/slice shots really bad. It only worsens if I try to really make sure I'm leading with my hips. I don't feel like I have a lot of hip slide, I think I make a proper turn based on video I've shot of myself.

So tonight I hit some balls and I noticed if I start the downswing with my arms and delay my hip throw a little bit, the ball goes much straighter. I even started pulling it a little too much so I had to balance the arms/hips timing thing. I think with a little more practice I could get used to it, perhaps hitting a lot fewer balls sliced right.

So, do I have timing problems? Tempo is different from timing right? Has that been my problem all along? I was fussing over grip, stance width, shoulder position, alignment, all for nothing?

I have a 9.5* driver face and I only carry a straight ball about 180-200. Should I be looking at something more lofty for more carry? Sorry so many questions and observations, but I'm excited about possibly having figured something out on my own.

I know, I know, get lessons right?

Here's a video from a couple of weeks ago. It's not with any of the new stuff I tried tonight. I don't think that is hip slide do you guys? Maybe I'm just not seeing it right.
http://www.swingacademy.com/videoplayer.aspx?id=4057

[Zeph]

There is probably a number of things that are wrong all together, but if you are slicing the ball, the clubface is definately open. Could be a faulty grip, cupping the left wrist, holding off the release. Hard to tell without down the line video. You have (at least on the video), very little hip movement, so you could be pushing or clocking them right because the body is not getting out of the way.

From the video, your club position at the top looks fine, but you are using a lot of arms, the body may not get all out of the way and it looks like you are holding off the release. Try getting the sensation of your right hand taking over your left through the ball.

My best advice would be to get some lessons, they can do wonders, especially for players at a higher handicap.

[JetFan1983]

I will second Zeph's advice and say that lessons are a must. But don't get lessons from just anyone; seek out the nearest golf learning center and sign up for a few one hour sessions with one of their teachers.

Our instincts in the early stages of learning this game are almost always dead wrong. You need someone who knows what he's doing to get you going on the right track. Good luck.

[michaeljames92]

To me it looks like you haven't cleared or turned your hips enough on the downswing. Try to 'almost' have your belt buckle facing the target at impact. If you look at the pros you will see that they do this. That should help you close the clubface.

Take a look at adam scott at the point of impact

[iacas]

I think you could do well with more hip slide. The front of your hip never even gets to the middle of your front foot let alone to the outer edge or beyond it. You're very static, very still. You're a big guy too (it seems - tall), and you need to start swinging harder at it. The hip bit will help.

Don't be averse to a hip slide:



And as for the advice about the belt buckle facing the target at impact, be careful. I won't say it's bad advice (but you can imagine what I think about it), but look at the pictures of Hogan and Tiger: their hips aren't anywhere near 90° open. More like 20. And Adam Scott's more like 40. Most of the rotation begins right after impact (and most of the 20 or 40 is right before impact).

[Jackslap]

I guess I'm kind of tall. 6'1". I did a little drill yesterday that gave me a bit of insight, but perhaps the insight is false feed back.

I started taking the club (driver, the one I really slice with) back only about 3/4 of the way. I kept my lower body totally still. It would turn a little bit with the arms swinging around, but I tried to MAKE it stay as still as I could. I was drilling little 150 yard line drives dead straight every time. That is what lead me to believe that it is my lower body that is screwing me up. Of course, my distance suffered a bit from lack of lower body movement, but surprisingly not too much. I only average around 180 off the tee anyway. I think that is a combination of wrong driver loft and hesitation to swing harder because that is when the slice really comes out.

I tend to think of things from a mechanics point of view, process of elimination. Is that a bad strategy to use when analyzing the golf swing?

Here are two DTL videos. They are obviously on different occasions, so perhaps the errors made in these ones are different than the errors in the first one.

http://www.swingacademy.com/videoplayer.aspx?id=4058

http://www.swingacademy.com/videoPlayer.aspx?id=4056

[mrserv0n18]

you follow the club head with your head, keep your head down till after the ball is long gone. That is number 1 reason for alot of your problems. You can also try putting the ball more in center stance , yes even for your driver. Between these 2 adjustments you should see much different results. Keep your head down

[squaddie]

...I started taking the club (driver, the one I really slice with) back only about 3/4 of the way. I kept my lower body totally still. It would turn a little bit with the arms swinging around, but I tried to MAKE it stay as still as I could. I was drilling little 150 yard line drives dead straight every time. That is what lead me to believe that it is my lower body that is screwing me up.

It's possible when you engage your lower body you are not allowing your forearms to release the club properly. But when you focus on an arms-only swing then your release with your arms is correctly timed. In the first swing academy video the club face looks a little open in the downswing at parallel, though in the particular frame the club was blurred due to the speed. I've had a problem recently where my driver shots have been pushing right, but not slicing too bad. I thought perhaps my out-to-in swing returned, but after video and sensor analysis today of my clubface at impact it was found I was leaving my clubface open, from 6 to 12 degrees. But my swing path was still inside to out. The instructor told me I should think about rolling my forearms during the downswing so I can close the clubface better. I was not an advocate of manipulating the hands or arms during the downswing, but I tried his suggestion and immediately got the clubface closed by 1 to 2 degrees. Instead of trying to intentionally roll the arms I tried to feel like they were rolling, so as not to overdo it. It's also possible I was freezing up my forearms or a little tense on the downswing, preventing them from rolling naturally. But the tip seemed to work so I intend to practice it until I don't have to think about the rolling. Anyhow, this is something else you can try. Instead of trying to intentionaly roll your forearms just think if you can feel them rolling, so that way you can ensure you aren't tensing them up.

[Jackslap]

Squaddie I like your statement. I too think that my problem stems from lack of arm roll.

The very first round I ever played was a few years ago, and I guy that I was with who routinely shoots mid 80's was giving me some friendly advice because I kept sailing balls WAY right. Since it was my first time out he wanted to give pointers and I welcomed them. He asked me if I could feel the moment right when I was about to hit the ball, and could I just make sure that I was turning my arms at that exact second.

I replied something like "Hell no I can't "feel" my arms in a split second like that, let alone time them to do something complicated like that. His response was something like, "Well, that is what you need to work on most". He then went on to explain that he didn't see anything else too obvious that would cause such a huge slice.

Ever since then I have not heeded his advice, and have never thought to try and "feel" my arms during the swing. Now that you are saying a very similar thing, perhaps I need to address it.

I have also played with a guy that I work with who used to play on the Canadian tour (so he says, but he sure plays like a pro. Birdied damn near every hole on our local course). Once while playing with him me and a few other guys in our group who totally sucked started asking him for tips. He pointed out a bunch of flaws in all the other dudes swings, naming specific faults or super obvious errors. When he came to me he said "you just need to hit range balls to get your timing right".

Now maybe he just said that because he didn't want to keep having to analyze everyone's swings all day, or maybe he said that because he too couldn't notice one particular thing I was being blatantly obvious about. He just chalked up my crappy swing to timing issues. And since arm rolling kind of has to do with timing, maybe were on to something here.

I really love the conversations we have here. I feel that I've learned so much in the few weeks I've been a member.

[squaddie]

Thanks, Jackslap. I've heard the arms-rolling advice before my lesson yesterday, and just ignored it since I have read trying to time the release is too difficult and perhaps the wrong approach. But the way I see it now the arms-rolling is more technique than timing, as allowing the rotation of the arms ensures the left wrist will face the ball near impact. Let me explain...

On video, the instructor showed me how with my before-swing my left wrist was cupping back slightly when the club was at parallel, coming down at the ball. As a result my club face was open and I appeared to maintain this cupped wrist position at impact.

He compared my image to a Pro's swing at the same position and found the Pro's left wrist was bowed so that the back of his wrist was facing the ball as his forearms were starting to rotate. The Pro's movement at this point was supporting the bowing or supination of the left wrist, which is a technique advocated by Ben Hogan in his Fundamentals book.

The instructor said it should feel like the back of my hand and/or my watch are facing the ball as I approach it, and at impact my left knuckles should feel like they are facing the ground. When I tried a few swings where I was allowing the back of my hand to face the ball and the forearms to rotate, the new swing video showed my left wrist was also starting to bow, and my club face was more closed at parallel than before.

With my problem it wasn't timing as much as I have been mis-directing my arms and getting in the way of the club releasing properly. As a result I believe I've been subconsciously blocking the proper rotation of the forearms, which also prevented my left wrist from supinating properly near impact.

In summary, I'm assuming that proper arm rotation on the downswing allows the left wrist to supinate properly. However, I don't believe the arm rotation should be too forceful. I think one should ensure they are not preventing the arms from rotating naturally in the early to mid downswing.

Here's a decent blog entry explaining more about supination. Blog entry about supination

There has also been a few discussions about supination on the sandtrap forum (available via search).

I'll also be working on proper arm rotation over the next week or two, as I believe I've been preventing proper impact for a long time, so it will take me a while to lose the bad habit.