I tried to call a penalty today...

[Fourputt]

I tried to call a penalty for violation of rule 8-1 on my opponent today, but I was told what he did was OK.

The moment he asked the question, he lost the hole to you. You can still play out the hole, but it's just for fun. The rule is very specific when it says he cannot ask for advice from anyone.

[iacas]

That's not correct.

Overlooking a rule or letting a rules violation through is not "agreement to waive a rule."

If my opponent is in a bunker and I see sand splash on his backswing, I'm perfectly allowed to NOT call the penalty on him in match play. It's only affecting me and there's no "agreement" to waive any rules - just my own decision not to enforce a rule that benefits only me. So I don't think the OP was in violation of 1-3. Maybe I missed something about an actual agreement, but saying "I won't call that one, but watch out, because it is against the rules" isn't an "agreement to waive."

[Cussin hacker]

A lot of misunderstanding of the rules here. I've noticed even with PGA events this happens. The rules of golf are not perfect and it seems to me that they are set up more for PGA events. There you have an official ready to clear any misunderstandings that come up. Within smaller events it's up to the players to interprit the rules and lets be honest nobody truely understands all of the rules. Grey areas do exist. Hopefully this thread is educating some folks, inculding me. When in doubt, common sense should be the rule of the day.

[Fourputt]

A lot of misunderstanding of the rules here. I've noticed even with PGA events this happens.

This is so not the case. The Rules of Golf exist to govern ALL play, not just PGA events. I'll never play professionally (

), but I always play by the rules, as do the guys I play with. I play plenty of club tournaments, and the Rules of Golf govern all of our play.

Within smaller events it's up to the players to interprit the rules

It is NOT up to the players to "interpret" the rules. It is up to the players to

follow the rules. The Rules of Golf have provisions to cover situations where there is a question or doubt as to the proper procedure. See Rule 2-5 for match play and Rule 3-3 for stroke play. If any interpretation or clarification is necessary that is up to the USGA and the R&A; to sort out.

and lets be honest nobody truely understands all of the rules. Grey areas do exist. Hopefully this thread is educating some folks, inculding me. When in doubt, common sense should be the rule of the day.

Lots of people understand the rules. I do, and I'm not a USGA Rules official... I'm just a golfer who wants to play the game correctly. There aren't any gray areas in the Rules that I know of. There may be procedures that you don't understand, but that doesn't make them gray areas, it just means that you need more education. Relying on common sense instead of real knowledge can lead to a player incurring a lot of penalty strokes. It will rarely lead him to following the right path as far as the rules are concerned. Common sense means different things to different people... The Rules of Golf are the same for all. I paraphrase Mark Twain who said, "Common sense really isn't very common."

[Cussin hacker]

The vast majority of people do not understand all of the rules and there are gray areas that can be taken in more than one way. It's clear from reading this thread that there are misunderstandings. It is up to the person to interprit and also follow rules in smaller events where you do not have an official on hand to do so. I guarantee you if you sat down with a PGA rules official and talked rules you would come away realizing you didn't know what you thought you knew.

My main point is that in smaller events it's hard to find an official that truely knows all the rules of golf to the letter. Nobodies perfict. The OP had this happen to him.

[Fourputt]

I guarantee you if you sat down with a PGA rules official and talked rules you would come away realizing you didn't know what you thought you knew.

Again, not true. I don't claim to know every facet of the rules by rote, but I carry a copy of the Rules of Golf in my bag, and I have a copy of both the Rules of Golf and of the Decisions on the bookshelf above my computer here. I have the USGA Rules website bookmarked on my computer. I know how to look up and find the answer to any question I might be asked. That is the same thing that any Rules official will do. Any competent rules official will have both the rule book and the Decisions with him on the course when working a tournament... if he doesn't then he doesn't deserve the title. Even if he knows the rules inside and out, having the books there give him the opportunity to show it to the player in print to support his ruling.

My main point is that in smaller events it's hard to find an official that truely knows all the rules of golf to the letter. Nobodies perfict. The OP had this happen to him.

Again, then make a point of learning them for yourself... there's no deep dark secret to the Rules of Golf. Just read them and discuss them on websites like this one. Look up the rules when a question comes up. It really doesn't take that long before they lose the mystery.

If the OP did as I do and carried a copy of the Rules in his bag, he wouldn't have had to call anyone. All he'd have had to do is show it to his opponent in black and white..... end of dispute.

[Cussin hacker]

Fourputt I comend you for your knowledge of the rules. I still say there are gray areas within the rules. It's human nature for people to interprit rules and laws diffrently. Judges do it all the time. Even within PGA events I've seen officials make diffrent calls on the same issue. It's just something that happens is all I'm saying.

As for me yes I do need to read up on the rules some. Although I play in no events were knowing all of the rules is needed it would still benifit me and my playing partners to know. For instance the type of events I play in nodody would call a penalty on someone for asking what club they used. But knowing the rule would still be good to know.

[Yukari]

If the OP did as I do and carried a copy of the Rules in his bag, he wouldn't have had to call anyone. All he'd have had to do is show it to his opponent in black and white..... end of dispute.

Very good point. I have a rule book in my bag at all times. Haven't had to use it, but it is there. Most of the situations that occur don't need a rule book to know. Only some obscure situations need the rule book for clarification. But having the rule book in the bag at all times sure saves a lot of hassles.

[sacm3bill]

Overlooking a rule or letting a rules violation through is not "agreement to waive a rule."...So I don't think the OP was in violation of 1-3.

Agreed, but I was responding to MiniMoe's scenario, not the OP's:

In match play, you can also disregard a rules violation on a case by case basis, meaning you can't agree to it before the match begins. So after he asked for the info, you could have also said, "Asking for advice from anyone other than a caddy is a rules violation with the penalty being loss of hole in match play. I'll overlook it this time, but don't let it happen again." That way you look like the good guy by teaching him the rules in a gracious manner.

If you point out there was a penalty to your opponent, he does not call it on himself, and you don't call it on him, that seems like an agreement between both parties to waive a rule.

[tulefog]

I agree that there was a rules violation, however, I would have handled it differently.

First, let me say that I would not feel good about winning a competition because of a technical rules violation - I would rather play better golf than the other guy to claim victory.

When your opponent asked his friend about the club, I would have stated something to the effect that inquiring about what club was used and responding are probably both rules violations. If he did it again, I would call him on it. Same thing for grounding the club.

In the mean time, I would have let it go. That's just me. YMMV

Better luck to you next year.

[Where's the Cart Girl?]

lets be honest nobody truely understands all of the rules. Grey areas do exist. Hopefully this thread is educating some folks, inculding me.

Lots of people understand the rules. There aren't any gray areas in the Rules that I know of. There may be procedures that you don't understand, but that doesn't make them gray areas, it just means that you need more education.

Anybody else see the irony here?

I got my education, that's for sure.....

[Cussin hacker]

Anybody else see the irony here?

What... The spelling? You got me there.

[Where's the Cart Girl?]

What... The spelling? You got me there.

No no man, I was alluding to the fact that there are two correct ways to spell the word 'grey' and you and the he went different ways. You're arguing with some know-it-all who blazes you about rules being absolute and there being no "grey areas" with rules. When the very word grey is[ /I] a gray area in the rules of grammar.

Just making a dick out of him really. You're safe. I just thought it was funny. Still do.

[iacas]

The vast majority of people do not understand all of the rules and there are gray areas that can be taken in more than one way.

Find a few. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I haven't ever found a "grey area."

[Jay-Bird]

There are no gray areas (or grey areas) in the rules. The rules are precise and thoroughly decided. If you don't completely understand a rule, read all of the "decisions" - they read quite clearly.

Whether you learn and comprehend the rules is a function of grey matter .

[PhilsRHman]

It's sad, but true how few people know the rules. My golf coach started every season with a session in a classroom, going over the rule book in language that made it easy to understand, and it always started with:
Rule 1 - If you break a rule and fail to penalize yourself, you are disqualified.
Rule 1a - If you witness a rule being broken and fail to call it, you are also disqualified (this is the 1.3 spoken of above, in language high schoolers get).

Since so few golfers play golf in competitions (I'd say not a single friend I play with has every played in anything that required turning in a scorecard) they don't bother with learning the rules. I don't think it's a malicious thing, they just don't have the impetus to learn.

But I will fully support those who say there is no gray area. The rules are very specific, and while there might be some instances where rules seem to conflict, there is the USGA Decisions book.

The saddest thing is that we're arguing over such simple, easy rules as advice, and agreement to waive the rules. Actually, the saddest thing is that any PGA professional would have blown that one.

[Parker0065]

Find a few. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Yes, I would be interested to see these rules that are gray(grey) and so open for interpretation? Just my opinion but I think they only become gray(grey) when players are trying to bend them!

[zeg]

Maybe in principle there are no gr(e/a)y areas, but in practice there sure are. The mere existence of the hefty tome that is the Decisions is evidence that even rules professionals need guidance in some situations. New decisions are periodically handed down, indicating that new situations arise. Rules clarifications are reasonably regularly made, etc... Even in principle, however, there are enough rules that I'm skeptical that there's unambiguous procedures for every event that could arise.