The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 32quattro

First thanks to your welcome to the forum. The video we are referring to should be changed to "only mid irons" so. Anyway I don't understand how your first post at page 1 shows Perry with a Driver and then my pics are off topic.

I'll stand by the video. I helped create the definition of Key #2, and measure it, and teach it (and teach it to other instructors too). Key #2 is "weight forward" and there are ranges of measurements for it. With a mid-iron, that number is 80-95%. With a driver, it's almost always 70%+. Even long drive guys get the majority of their "weight" (again, really "force") forward around impact, though many of them will get it so far forward they're airborne or nearly airborne.

This thread is about sliding your hips forward. Kenny Perry slid his hips forward in that sequence, did he not? Okay, then, so that's the relevance of that picture in the first post.

Your posts are off topic because this thread is about the hip slide, not "weight forward." I'd ask that you either separate your trains of thought or tie them together so that the relevance is more obvious. Do PGA Tour players slide their hips forward? Yes. That's what this thread is about. if you want to talk about the specifics of Key #2, there are many, many other threads for that.

FWIW, the video was posted as an aside to answer the related question of "as they slide forward, how do they rotate?" It is intended to help golfers who slide their hips forward but don't allow them to rotate as much. For many, it's "the next step" in doing Key #2 properly, and relates to the hip slide. I was asked the question, and the video was a quick way of answering without going into a lot more detail (which is found in other threads).

1) In the video is mentioned that pros are well open at impact while in your first post (page 1) you are saying they don't.

The first post said they're slightly open. How do you define "slightly"? If I call it being 35-40° open, then PGA Tour players would match that number and thus that definition. Amateurs, I also said, tend to be more open (less common) or too square to the target line (more common) than PGA Tour pros.

2) The weight on a foot is not based on how many square/inches are in contact with the ground (see ballerinas on classic dance)

I know this. Hence when I said things like "summation of pressure." We're talking about total force. Still, the point remains that if someone's foot is dragging, they're probably not putting a lot of weight/force/pressure into the foot.

3) If you are referring to forces directed forward, that totally different from weight forward. In any case forces are going down and up as well so suggesting to slide the hips forward is incorrect.

I do not believe I am referring to forces directed forward, whatever that means… (GRF vectors are angled in all sorts of directions, some of which is forward, and the hips absolutely move forward, so I don't know exactly what you're saying here. There are "forward directed" forces in the golf swing.)

The hips slide forward in virtually every PGA Tour player's golf swing. I'll stand by that. I've seen far too much 3D biomechanics data to believe otherwise right now. Forces are going down and up, and left and right and forward and back… and PGA Tour pros slide their hips forward. All of that is true.

If you explain to a student to move his hips forward (as in your first post page 1) you are looking for blocks/straight pushes/flipping simply because you are moving his sternum forward. Now the student must through the arms to save the shot or has to slow down the body and play catch up

I disagree that moving your hips forward means you're moving the sternum forward (the bottom often moves forward, and secondary axis tilt is created, but the sternum does not move forward uniformly), and have taught hundreds of students successfully to move their hips forward while keeping their head relatively centered.

Maybe you are not paying attention to the audio in the video. It says white when the author of the thread says black referring to Golf Digest. It is there clearly available for everyone. I won't carry on on that.

Please be specific. As one of the guys IN the video, and as a guy who has done a fair amount of studying of this, I do not know what you're talking about with "white" and "black" stuff.

Analog scales are a terrible way to measure something that's happening so quickly. They're delayed.

You need mass behind the ball

Why? Because… no you don't. What is the mass of your body going to do? All the ball cares about is the clubhead, basically (and about four inches of the shaft or so).

while the guy simulating the swing is sliding forward on his front foot while retaining lag. To me is incorrect and is sending the wrong message.  Where is the mass (weight in kg) on better players (top pro players), behind or in front the ball ? . You need to have some 'meat' behind the ball not just some arms catching up.

Why do you need to have "meat" behind the ball? Why? Please tell me. I'm curious to hear what you have to say on that.

I am not picking a single player as an example but to me Rory is moving his left hip backwards after pushing down the ground with the right foot instep and consequently directing his left knee forward left.

Rory's hip girdle is moving forward throughout his entire downswing.

I've marked approximately where Rory's left hip, right hip, and the approximate center of his hip girdle is. The angled red line is the same in both. Clearly his hips are sliding forward.

If you want to play some geometry tricks to say that his LEFT hip is moving left and backward, well yes, because the hips aren't a single point in space, and they're rotating on their own arc as well, and so once it is on the "forward" side of that arc it will rotate backward… but that's the point of the video: once a player SLIDES the hips forward, they also have to make sure they're turning and opening up at the proper rate.

Note that even though Rory's left hip is traveling backward some by the time he reaches impact (i.e. his hips are past "square"), it's still forward of where it was at the top of the backswing. The center of the hips are quite a bit forward. And the right hip is well forward. Thus, the hips have moved forward.

If my assertion is true, how do you slide forward and at the same time squat down your right leg ? You can't. If you slide you are dead (better players would say).

Why are we sliding forward and squatting down the right leg, exactly?

I'm a better player. I don't say that. And PGA Tour players don't DO it, either. I'm not really all that interested in what they SAY. I care far more about what they DO.

And what do PGA Tour players do? Slide their hips forward on the downswing.

---

As I said, we love to discuss things here. We like to be shown that we're wrong because we're of a scientific mind and approach here at TST. Being wrong and being shown why presents an instant opportunity to upgrade knowledge, and we LOVE that.

But you need to come at this with more than just "better players would say" and a bunch of old myths about sliding your hips leading to blocked shots.

[saevel25]

The video can be good for beginners, not for better players.

I would say "duh" because better players already slide their hips and get their hips open at impact.

If my assertion is true, how do you slide forward and at the same time squat down your right leg ? You can't. If you slide you are dead (better players would say).

It's not true. Well, your right knee loses flex in the backswing, gains flex in the downswing, basically a squatting move.

Your left hip then shifts laterally and rotates at the same time.

[32quattro]

This thread is about sliding your hips forward. Kenny Perry slid his hips forward in that sequence, did he not? Okay, then, so that's the relevance of that picture in the first post.

Your posts are off topic because this thread is about the hip slide, not "weight forward."

FWIW, the video was posted as an aside to answer the related question of "as they slide forward, how do they rotate?" It is intended to help golfers who slide their hips forward but don't allow them to rotate as much. For many, it's "the next step" in doing Key #2 properly, and relates to the hip slide. I was asked the question, and the video was a quick way of answering without going into a lot more detail (which is found in other threads).

The hips slide forward in virtually every PGA Tour player's golf swing. I'll stand by that. I've seen far too much 3D biomechanics data to believe otherwise right now. Forces are going down and up, and left and right and forward and back… and PGA Tour pros slide their hips forward. All of that is true.

Please be specific. As one of the guys IN the video, and as a guy who has done a fair amount of studying of this, I do not know what you're talking about with "white" and "black" stuff.

Why? Because… no you don't. What is the mass of your body going to do? All the ball cares about is the clubhead, basically (and about four inches of the shaft or so).

Why do you need to have "meat" behind the ball? Why? Please tell me. I'm curious to hear what you have to say on that.

Rory's hip girdle is moving forward throughout his entire downswing.

I've marked approximately where Rory's left hip, right hip, and the approximate center of his hip girdle is. The angled red line is the same in both. Clearly his hips are sliding forward.

Why are we sliding forward and squatting down the right leg, exactly?

I'm a better player. I don't say that. And PGA Tour players don't DO it, either. I'm not really all that interested in what they SAY. I care far more about what they DO.

And what do PGA Tour players do? Slide their hips forward on the downswing.

This is the video I am referring to. If this slide (or weight forward) is what PROS are doing and you stand by, there's no point to go forward in this discussion.

The left hip is outside the left heel (no bueno) The right hip is in the middle of the stance

Because the camera is slightly left of centre, the slide looks bigger but even considering that, I can affirm this is not a correct position. This is a slide forward that I can't see in any good player.

The left hip is inside the left heel , always. At impact the body mass "meat" is behind the ball

Mass "meat" behind the ball

Left hip inside left heel

Left hip inside left heel

Left hip inside left heel, squat right leg, left knee move left, left buttock turns backwards. Is this sliding forward as in the video ????????? Don't think so

Left hip inside left heel

World Scientific Congress of Golf V CHAPTER 9

Weight Transfer Time Moderation by Golf Handicap

Paul Worsfold, University of Chester

Neal Smith, University of Chichester Rosemary Dyson, University of Chichester

DISCUSSION

The concept of weight transfer is a controversial issue as acknowledged by Hume (2005), and there are inherent difficulties in comparing studies across decades with technological developments in golf equipment, golf technique (Ball et al. 2002), differing investigative methods and analyses (Ball & Best, 2007) and advances in scientific measurement equipment. In this study the low handicap, more experienced golfers demonstrated significantly slower weight transfer times with the driver and both the 3 iron and 7 iron. This finding is thought to indicate that the more experienced golfers are better able to control the powerful torques generated during the club swing process. In contrast, a faster more explosive weight transfer from back foot to front foot during the swing would be harder to control, especially around the time of ball contact when precise club head to ball contact is required.

APPLICATION

Coaches and golfers should note that a slower controlled weight transfer is adopted by low handicap players, and consider integrating these research findings within training and coaching.

How fast is the sliding ?

As you can see from this study case, midway through the downswing there's still more weight on back foot and the "slide" is controlled.

[iacas]

This is the video I am referring to. If this slide (or weight forward) is what PROS are doing and you stand by, there's no point to go forward in this discussion.

The left hip is outside the left heel (no bueno)    The right hip is in the middle of the stance

That's a video demonstration, not an actual swing. It's a bit exaggerated. Many players need to feel that they slide their hips forward that far just in order to get their hips forward enough.

The left hip is inside the left heel , always. At impact the body mass "meat" is behind the ball

What's the purpose of having "meat" behind the ball? You still have not answered that question.

The simple truth is that all PGA Tour pros slide their hips forward. With driver, with iron, with all clubs. Pretty much always have, too.

Is there mass behind the ball? Of course. I've said that the head stays back. The right side of the body is still there behind the ball. Mass (actual "weight") lags behind the actual forces/pressures measured. For example, at impact, a golfer's mass might only be 75% forward while their pressure/force is 90% forward.

And again, if you're talking about a driver, these three things can be true at the same time:

• The majority of a player's weight (and force) is on their front foot.
• The golfer has slid his hips forward.
• The majority of the player's weight/mass is "behind the ball."

Why? Because the ball is so far forward. Using the ball as a reference point is weak because a golfer's ball position can and usually does change with the club.

So what are you actually saying? I think I've proven fairly sufficiently that pros slide their hips forward. We refuted the "sternum must also move forward" thing you posted above. You've yet to tell me why having "meat" behind the ball - which I am not telling golfers "not" to do - is soo important.

Left hip inside left heel

Left hip inside left heel

Left hip inside left heel, squat right leg, left knee move left, left buttock turns backwards. Is this sliding forward as in the video ????????? Don't think so

Left hip inside left heel

Where are the photos of the rest of those golfer's downswings? I posted a Snead photo above, but since it's in a spoiler, I've added it here and taken the opportunity to draw some extra lines too. Here we go:

So what do we see here?

• Hips have slid forward.
• Majority of "meat" still behind ball (thick green line)
• Majority of both weight and force forward of center (thin green line, which I made as far forward as possible)

The concept of weight transfer is a controversial issue as acknowledged by Hume (2005), and there are inherent difficulties in comparing studies across decades with technological developments in golf equipment, golf technique (Ball et al. 2002), differing investigative methods and analyses (Ball & Best, 2007) and advances in scientific measurement equipment. In this study the low handicap, more experienced golfers demonstrated significantly slower weight transfer times with the driver and both the 3 iron and 7 iron. This finding is thought to indicate that the more experienced golfers are better able to control the powerful torques generated during the club swing process. In contrast, a faster more explosive weight transfer from back foot to front foot during the swing would be harder to control, especially around the time of ball contact when precise club head to ball contact is required.

APPLICATION

Coaches and golfers should note that a slower controlled weight transfer is adopted by low handicap players, and consider integrating these research findings within training and coaching.

How fast is the sliding ?

As you can see from this study case, midway through the downswing there's still more weight on back foot and the "slide" is controlled.

I've read a bunch of studies that would contradict some of the numbers in that swing. I have many reasons to call into question some of those numbers. For example, at impact the golfer has not yet achieved even 70% of his force forward (~500/~725). In the follow through he's at about 600/780, so still only about 75% forward. This is, of course, the point at which most golfers are on their trail toes. I have seen plenty of data that makes this data suspicious.

The chart presents more questions than it answers. Chief among those are "what is a "slow" or a "fast" weight transfer?" Which golfers were used in this study? What clubs were they hitting? I've posted videos of a lot of players here, and photos in this very post, showing what you contend to be untrue. You started by saying the slide was not present, but now the slide is simply "controlled'? Never have we said that the slide is fully completed by "midway through the downswing" nor would we ever tell people that they should slide their hips in anything but a "controlled" fashion.

In fact, in several videos, we talk about how many amateurs will get their weight/force forward too quickly (which then often pushes them back onto their back foot), and that the "forward" has to take place throughout the entire downswing.

At the end of the day, I don't feel that you understand the position we have here, or exactly what you believe to be true, either. I think these things are true for the vast majority of better players:

• The force and mass are forward, though the latter is often lagging behind a bit because the front side can "outwork" the trail side by extending while the trail side is often just dragging.
• The best players in the world slide their hips forward throughout their entire downswing.
• Depending on ball position and the club choice, players may or may not (but often do) have "meat" behind the ball at impact.

The last point is one I simply don't see much value in discussing, as "stay behind the ball" is often bad advice in my experience. There's no quantifiable amount of "meat" and again ball position, club choice, etc. varies the amount of "meat" that should stay behind the ball anyway.

[32quattro]

The chart presents more questions than it answers. Chief among those are "what is a "slow" or a "fast" weight transfer?" Which golfers were used in this study? What clubs were they hitting? I've posted videos of a lot of players here, and photos in this very post, showing what you contend to be untrue. You started by saying the slide was not present, but now the slide is simply "controlled'? Never have we said that the slide is fully completed by "midway through the downswing" nor would we ever tell people that they should slide their hips in anything but a "controlled" fashion.

In fact, in several videos, we talk about how many amateurs will get their weight/force forward too quickly (which then often pushes them back onto their back foot), and that the "forward" has to take place throughout the entire downswing.

At the end of the day, I don't feel that you understand the position we have here, or exactly what you believe to be true, either. I think these things are true for the vast majority of better players:

The force and mass are forward, though the latter is often lagging behind a bit because the front side can "outwork" the trail side by extending while the trail side is often just dragging.

The best players in the world slide their hips forward throughout their entire downswing.

Depending on ball position and the club choice, players may or may not (but often do) have "meat" behind the ball at impact.

The last point is one I simply don't see much value in discussing, as "stay behind the ball" is often bad advice in my experience. There's no quantifiable amount of "meat" and again ball position, club choice, etc. varies the amount of "meat" that should stay behind the ball anyway.

I never said there's no slide. I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video. But we keep our different ideas and I just showed you several examples of it. I stay with the Sam Snead bandwagon, on applying pressure on the right foot on early transition (squatting/sitting) while externally rotating the left knee and moving backwards the left side. It is a totally different move allowing to generate a more powerfull momentum. To do so you need a firm left side (left foot braking inside the shoes) that is the opposite of what you are showing in the video frame I posted.

Reference diagram

--------------------------

REFERENCES

Ball, K.A., Best, R.J., Dowlan, S., & Brown, D. (2002). Different weight transfer patterns in golf. In: Gianikellis, K.E. et al. (Eds). Proceedings of the XXth International Symposium on Biomechanics in Sports (pp.192-195). Spain:Universidad de Extremadura

Ball, K.A. & Best, R.J. (2007). Different centre of pressure patterns within the golf stroke II: Group–based analysis. Journal of Sports Sciences, 25 , 771-779

Barrentine, S.W , Fleisig, G.S. & Johnson, H. (1994). Ground reaction forces and torques of professional and amateur golfers . In: Cochran, A.J. & Farrally M.R. (Eds) Science and Golf II. Proceedings. of the World Scientific Congress of Golf (pp 33-39). London: E & FN Spon.

Dillman, C.J. & Lange G.W. (1994). How has biomechanics contributed to the understanding of the golf swing? In: Cochran, A.J. & Farrally M.R. (Eds) Science and Golf II. Proceedings. of the World Scientific Congress of Golf Science and Golf (pp 3-13). London: E & FN Spon.

Hume, P.A., Keogh, J. & Reid, D. (2005). The role of biomechanics in maximising distance and accuracy of golf shots. Sports Medicine, 35, 429-449.

Janaway, L, & Dyson, R. (2000). Turf laying system . British patent number: GB2370964. Koenig, G., Tamres, M., & Mann, RW. (1994). The biomechanics of the shoe-ground interaction in golf. In: Cochran, A.J. & Farrally M.R. (Eds) Science and Golf II. Proceedings. of

the World Scientific Congress of Golf (pp 40-45). London: E & FN Spon.
Wallace, E., Grimshaw, P., & Ashford, R. (1994). Discrete pressure profiles of the feet and weight transfer patterns during the golf swing. Cochran, A.J. & Farrally, M.R. (Eds). Science and Golf II. Proceedings of the World Scientific Congress of Golf. (pp 27-32). London: E &

FN Spon.
Williams, K.R. & Cavanagh, P.R. (1983). The mechanics of foot action during the golf swing and

implications for shoe design. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 15, 247-255. Williams, K.R. & Sih, B.L. (1998). Ground reaction forces in regular-spike and alternative-spike golf shoes. In: Farrally, M.R. and Cochran, A.J. (Eds). Science and Golf III. Proceedings of the 1998 World Scientific Congress of Golf. (pp 568-576). Champaign: Human

Kinetics.
Worsfold, P., Smith, N. & Dyson R. (2006). Influences of golf club selection on ground reaction

forces on a natural turf surface. In: Schwameder H, Strutzenberger G, Fastenbauer V, Lindinger S, Muller, E. (Eds). Proceedings of XXIV International Symposium on Biomechanics in Sports. (pp 839-843). Austria: University of Salzburg.

Worsfold, P., Smith, N. & Dyson R. (2007). A comparison of golf shoe designs highlights greater ground reaction forces with shorter irons. Journal of Sports Science and Medicine, 6 , 484-489.

[saevel25]

I never said there's no slide. I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video

Again, the video is for a drill, not an actual swing. As stated in the post just previous yours,

That's a video demonstration, not an actual swing. It's a bit exaggerated. Many players need to feel that they slide their hips forward that far just in order to get their hips forward enough.

[chspeed]

Left hip inside left heel, squat right leg, left knee move left, left buttock turns backwards. Is this sliding forward as in the video ????????? Don't think so

I think the "squat right leg" and "left buttock turns backwards" you see is the back leg regaining flex as the hips slide forward and open. The left knee loses flex during the backswing, and gains flex in the downswing. Maybe we're all talking about the same thing, but to me "squat" implies increasing force on the right leg, but that's clearly not what happens in the downswing of PGA tour players.

[saevel25]

I think the "squat right leg" and "left buttock turns backwards" you see is the back leg regaining flex as the hips slide forward and open. The left knee loses flex during the backswing, and gains flex in the downswing. Maybe we're all talking about the same thing, but to me "squat" implies increasing force on the right leg, but that's clearly not what happens in the downswing of PGA tour players.

The left knee gains flex in the backswing. The right knee loses flex in the backswing.

[iacas]

I never said there's no slide.

Then at this point I'd ask you to make a statement and stand by it, and I don't mean one couched in words like "firm left side" that vary in definition and/or have no real scientific value.

Thus far, it seems to me you've simply disagreed while continually shifting the goalposts. In a thread about sliding the hips forward, you talked about pressure and force, you've talked about the sternum moving forward, you've talked about "meat behind the ball," you've talked about the positions in the early downswing, you've talked about how sliding is a bad thing that will lead to blocks, etc.

You've ignored the counterpoint made against you, like the horrible use of analog scales. So again, please, make some definitive statements that say what you think to be true and we'll discuss those.

I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video.

I believe this to be incorrect, and I have demonstrated this with photos, and I have seen plenty of 3D data to show that center of the hip girdle moves forward a fair amount during the downswing. It varies by player and club, but it's moving forward.

I've never asked a student to actually do as much as is demonstrated in the video (and again I'll note that the video is an exaggeration, and you're picking at something that is not even the topic of the video). Many students need to feel as though they move their hips forward that much, though.

But we keep our different ideas and I just showed you several examples of it.

With all due respect, no, you didn't. You showed examples of players very early in the downswing (or at the top of the backswing), many of whom have begun sliding their hips forward…

I stay with the Sam Snead bandwagon, on applying pressure on the right foot on early transition (squatting/sitting) while externally rotating the left knee and moving backwards the left side.

Snead slid his hips forward like virtually every other golfer. Undoubtedly some pressure shifted to his right foot - the Grant Waite video has a little "cleft" showing pressure/force shifting ever so slightly back to his right foot in the very early downswing, and likely from the motion of his arms more than anything - but from there, his hips shift quite a bit forward, his force/pressure/mass transfers gradually to his front foot, and he's well above 85% or so (force) at impact.

Please understand that you can't just "say" things you think are true. Please consider where Snead's left hip is in both photos here:

It's left of the thick line in the left photo, and right of it in the right photo. Forward.

Here's a little model/graphic based on some data I've seen and/or helped compile. It's an approximation of a fairly typical PGA Tour player's swing with a mid-iron. The oval is somewhat representative of the hip girdle (just below the waist, etc.; sorry, no butt cheeks or anything) and the dots represent the left hip socket, right hip socket, and center of the hip girdle.

What we can see here is that while the left hip does indeed move backward slightly from the farthest point it gets forward (around A6 here, and typically at about this point in good players), the center of the hips continue forward slightly. Most of the "sliding" of the hips forward occurs before A7 (impact), but part of that is simply due to the amount of time: it's short between A6 and A7 and longer from A4 to A5 or A5 to A6.

What issues, if any, do you have with this graphic?

There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video.

Again, so I'm clear: there is a deliberate slide/bump forward (toward the target) of the hips in the downswing, though it is rarely as much as in the video (which, again, is not talking about the sliding portion, but rather, the turning portion).

I stay with the Sam Snead bandwagon, on applying pressure on the right foot on early transition (squatting/sitting) while externally rotating the left knee and moving backwards the left side.

Squatting (increasing the flex) actually serves to relieve or reduce the pressure into the ground. It's extending, as with the trail knee in the backswing, or the front knee in the late downswing, that increases force/pressure.

To do so you need a firm left side (left foot braking inside the shoes) that is the opposite of what you are showing in the video frame I posted.

I'm not interested in talking about the video frame. For the last time, it's an exaggeration, a feel, and not even the topic of the video .

You're just using words here like a "firm left side" and so on. Did you look at the photos I posted? Maybe you missed them because they were in a spoiler. Good golfers slide their hips forward. This is the topic of this thread .

Sliding the hips forward was not the topic of the video, which was to say that as you slide your hips forward you must also TURN to open them up.

Maybe we're all talking about the same thing, but to me "squat" implies increasing force on the right leg, but that's clearly not what happens in the downswing of PGA tour players.

As noted above, squatting would actually reduce pressure in that instant. It is a way to store potential energy to be used later by extending (you can't extend and push against the ground if you're already extended), but generally speaking, the trail knee regaining flex in the early downswing is part of the reason why the force shifts forward, because it is reduced under the trail foot as the trail knee increases in flex. Simple physics.

[chspeed]

The left knee gains flex in the backswing. The right knee loses flex in the backswing.

That's what I meant :) Got my back/forward/right/left confused!

[saevel25]

That's what I meant :) Got my back/forward/right/left confused!

Don't worry, it's the golf swing, it's damn complicated. We'll just say you meant for a left handed person in that instance.

[maddog0512]

Key #2 is my priority piece at the moment.  Anyway, I found this video and thought it deserved to be in this thread.  My apologies if it's already been posted but I think you can very clearly see that Luke is focusing on sliding/bumping/moving his hips toward the target to start the downswing.  If it's good enough for a former world no. 1, it's good enough for me.

[saevel25]

Key #2 is my priority piece at the moment.  Anyway, I found this video and thought it deserved to be in this thread.  My apologies if it's already been posted but I think you can very clearly see that Luke is focusing on sliding/bumping/moving his hips toward the target to start the downswing.  If it's good enough for a former world no. 1, it's good enough for me.

Great example of how a drill will not produce the exact motion in the swing, but produce small changes towards a goal.

Drill                                                          Actual

[mvmac]

I never said there's no slide. I know that better players externally rotate the front left knee while turning the left butt side backwards. There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video. But we keep our different ideas and I just showed you several examples of it. I stay with the Sam Snead bandwagon, on applying pressure on the right foot on early transition (squatting/sitting) while externally rotating the left knee and moving backwards the left side. It is a totally different move allowing to generate a more powerfull momentum. To do so you need a firm left side (left foot braking inside the shoes) that is the opposite of what you are showing in the video frame I posted.

I highly question what you think you "know" when you post pics of analog scales, talking a firm left side and how squatting applies pressure. Seems like a lot of your "knowledge" is based on golf magazine articles, what players said they felt and general golf myths. @iacas has shared a lot of great information in his last few posts, I suggest you take the opportunity to learn from them.

There is not a deliberate slide/bump left of the hips as in the video.

You can keep saying stuff like this all you want but I think you know it's just a demonstration. I can show you video of Hogan demonstrating a feel resulting in a position that you would never want to make in a golf swing.

[Crazycanuck44]

You can keep saying stuff like this all you want but I think you know it's just a demonstration. I can show you video of Hogan demonstrating a feel resulting in a position that you would never want to make in a golf swing

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[natureboy]

It seems like Quattro and the mods are talking at cross purposes / word meanings a bit.

It sounds to me like Quattro is emphasizing the feel of working down the inside of the trail leg after the lead foot is replanted during transition. If the trail knee is 'in business' during early downswing, this dropping of the body weight toward the ground from the backswing pressured / weighted trail side will tend to both push the lead hip forward and assist in hip rotation. He may be focusing on the use of the term 'slide' which to some implies a conscious 'check' of the hips toward the target. I don't think this is necessarily what mods are advocating. I think they are focused on the observable fact that the lead hip clearly has lateral movement well ahead of address position at impact. Personally I would call this lateral shifting rather than 'slide'.

IMO it is possible to achieve his look at impact with different mechanics than working down the inside of the trail leg...more of a 'stride' maybe before / during the turn. Is this idea / move what Quattro is objecting to even if not what is meant by 'slide' on this thread? Personally, I think both pivots can work if the 'stride' isn't overdone, but I do like the feel of working down the trail side once a lead side post is established to turn / push into..

[iacas]

I don't think so @natureboy . I've asked for clarifications when necessary and my terms are, I believe, pretty clearly defined. I don't mean "lateral shifting" I mean slide and defined the term. As I see it they're synonyms anyway. I'm not really interested in feels. More interested in what is actually occurring.

[natureboy]

I don't think so @natureboy. I've asked for clarifications when necessary and my terms are, I believe, pretty clearly defined. I don't mean "lateral shifting" I mean slide and defined the term. As I see it they're synonyms anyway.

I'm not really interested in feels. More interested in what is actually occurring.

Sorry, I'm confused now. If they're synonyms then you mean lateral shifting and/or slide? I don't get your variation of slide. Is it identical to 'old school' definition or different? To be even clearer 'hip movement toward target' relative to position at address, yes?

That movement toward target is clearly there in all good golfers, I do think there are possible variations in the cause of that hip effect. A difference if the lead side is dragging a more passive trail side or if a more active trail side is helping 'push' the lead side forward. I think these are both legitimate ways to pivot. They won't necessarily look very different in pis or video. I would expect force plate to at least show subtle difference, but don't have any experience using one so not sure.