Will making lofts stronger affect playability?

[MattM]

Yeah thats the thing i dont get.  So my 6 iron flies 180 yards but new irons are three to four degrees stronger so id be hitting a new 7 or 8 180 yards.  Really that 7 or 8 is just an old 6 iron thats been renamed a 7 or 8. Thats what it seems like to me anyway.

 

[Lihu]

On 11/15/2017 at 11:44 AM, WUTiger said:

Reminds me of Ping's experiences when Karsten started producing perimeter-weighted irons: the good news was they got the ball up a lot better than blades of the era. The bad news was they flew about a half-club shorter than the blades.

Sensing that golfers didn't want to hit the ball shorter, Ping strengthened the iron lofts about 2 degrees to hold the line against distance loss. Well and good, until golf's marketing idiots got hold of the idea and created the arms race for the 200-yd. 7 iron.  

Let's see, I have an 8 club set right now, and I can only hit half of them. If my 7i were lofted like my 4i, I'd only be able to hit my PW reliably, but hey, I could carry it 160 yards.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Lihu

[WUTiger]

4 hours ago, Lihu said:

Let's see, I have an 8 club set right now, and I can only hit half of them. If my 7i were lofted like my 4i, I'd only be able to hit my PW reliably, but hey, I could carry it 160 yards.

We had a thread along this vector a couple of years ago. Humor aside, the reality is if you cut down a 4i two inches for better control, it won't go very far. With a 4i, you need the longer shaft to get enough leverage to get the ball airborne.

This would be a good test to conduct right before Happy Hour. If it doesn't work out, we could analyze it over a brew.

[JDD]

This is an old post that was resurrected but it's particularly relevant these days with the changes in clubs. The level of technology, changes in design are more significant these days. Example: I bought a set of Ping G irons several months ago. I didn't notice it at the time but they're 1/2 longer than even standard graphite and the shaft is about 75 grams. And they have high bounce rates. Over time I learned that I could hit the long irons further but the short irons, i.e. PW and 9 were about 10 yards shorter. But a half inch longer increased dispersion with irons long irons as does graphite. I had always played steel. So, I was just fitted for a new set of MIzuno MP 18s. And guess what? The shaft optimizer shows that I was better off in light weight steel, and PS, regular is not always "regular" and "stiff" is not always stiff like most amateurs think. The properties of shafts vary greatly these days. My launch angle shows that I'm better off with irons strengthened 2 degrees. (That adds a little bounce but Mizuno irons typically have very little bounce to begin with). So, now I have irons that are the right length, less dispersion that go the distance they should. And here's an interesting note: I tend to be a little flat and Mizuno comes 1 degree flatter. And in addition shorter is also flatter. Ping had flattened my irons but that added bounce, too much. Those Mizuno MP 18s look a lot like old MP 57s which I loved at address but were not very forgiving. Thanks to changes in design and technology these are very forgiving.

[MarvChamp]

This post is really about taking existing clubs and making their lofts stronger, I believe. But others have commented on the "modern" lofts.  Here are the lofts from my pitching wedges: Tommy Armour 845u Silverbacks, 47*; Mizuno MX100 & 200, 45*; Mizuno JPX800 HD, 44*. They get stronger as they get newer. So goes the golf world. But my Artisan Golf PW received this spring is more old school at 46* to maintain the gap between it and the GW.  -Marv

[JDD]

This post was originally started by a guy buying clubs. In the fitting they recommended strengthening the lofts and he was concerned about how that would affect playability. Your comment that newer clubs are stronger is partly true. There has been a trend with game improvement clubs to lengthen them and strengthen the lies. But that's not true for all clubs. For the set of Mizunos I just bought (MP 18s, forged) the standard loft for the PW is 46 degrees. 

[MarvChamp]

12 hours ago, JDD said:

This post was originally started by a guy buying clubs. In the fitting they recommended strengthening the lofts and he was concerned about how that would affect playability. Your comment that newer clubs are stronger is partly true. There has been a trend with game improvement clubs to lengthen them and strengthen the lies. But that's not true for all clubs. For the set of Mizunos I just bought (MP 18s, forged) the standard loft for the PW is 46 degrees. 

Yes, what you say is true. And I believe the Mizuno MP line has not followed the stronger Lofts of the game improvement clubs. Is that correct? Thanks, -Marv

[Lihu]

On 11/19/2017 at 10:56 AM, MarvChamp said:

This post is really about taking existing clubs and making their lofts stronger, I believe. But others have commented on the "modern" lofts.  Here are the lofts from my pitching wedges: Tommy Armour 845u Silverbacks, 47*; Mizuno MX100 & 200, 45*; Mizuno JPX800 HD, 44*. They get stronger as they get newer. So goes the golf world. But my Artisan Golf PW received this spring is more old school at 46* to maintain the gap between it and the GW.  -Marv

I don't think loft is the only thing that affects play-ability in the newer clubs. There are other attributes that make them easier to hit even with lower lofts.

[JDD]

Lower lofts are more difficult to hit, not easier. But, for marketing they want mid range players to hit the ball further. And yes, they have tried to make clubs more forgiving by how they design the heads.

 

Correct. The MP 18s PW is 46 degrees standard but they can strengthened up to two degrees.

[MarvChamp]

On 11/21/2017 at 8:39 AM, Lihu said:

I don't think loft is the only thing that affects play-ability in the newer clubs. There are other attributes that make them easier to hit even with lower lofts.

Right. Bounce, lie angles, weighting...all the other technology goes into it, I think. I tried to read all the engineering considerations that Maltby uses but got lost, of course. Nevertheless, it's a good start in studying "playability". My JPX800 HD's are really easy to hit well, though lofts are lower. Regards, -Marv

[WUTiger]

On 11/20/2017 at 7:26 PM, JDD said:

...  There has been a trend with game improvement clubs to lengthen them and strengthen the lies. ... 

A GolfWorks instructor suggests the longer lengths correspond - in part -  with the fact that the USA population has been getting taller the past 20 years.

[AlDena]

On 11/27/2017 at 9:49 AM, WUTiger said:

A GolfWorks instructor suggests the longer lengths correspond - in part -  with the fact that the USA population has been getting taller the past 20 years.

I don't know about that, I've been the same height for the last 20 years.  ;)

[WUTiger]

5 hours ago, AlDena said:

I don't know about that, I've been the same height for the last 20 years.  ;)

Don't gloat! I used to be 5-foot-9... now I'm only 5-foot-8 (and sinking).

[JDD]

Clubs are longer because people are getting taller. Chuckle. Well, we have custom fitting to decide if you need longer clubs. And it's not just a matter of height, it's also a matter or arm length. I'd say that it's mainly about marketing. Making clubs longer, lighter, stronger plays to wanting to hit it further. And to a degree that's fine. With changes in technology that can be a benefit. But irons are for accuracy first.