What Causes A Draw?

[Fred99x]

I thought I knew the basics of what causes a slice until I read this article. Someone please tell me this is a mistake: "if your face is two degrees open to the target at impact, and your path is four degrees from the inside, then that’s a ball that will start slightly to the right [of the target line] and turn slightly to the left." An inside path with an open face = draw? Here is the link to the article, go down to the section "Traditional instruction says that an open clubface is what causes a slice. Not true?"

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/tour-i...n-slice-33404/

[O.B. Right]

In the question just above this one, he states "The reality is the face determines where the ball starts and the path relative to the face determines which direction the ball curves"

I don't know how good his explanations are or if I understood them correctly . .but you can hit a slice with a closed face if your swing path is outside-in enough.

[GamerJG]

I thought I knew the basics of what causes a slice until I read this article. Someone please tell me this is a mistake: "if your face is two degrees open to the target at impact, and your path is four degrees from the inside, then that’s a ball that will start slightly to the right [of the target line] and turn slightly to the left." An inside path with an open face = draw? Here is the link to the article, go down to the section "Traditional instruction says that an open clubface is what causes a slice. Not true?"

this is true. this is the shot i play. if you close your face a little, then you get a bigger draw. i use an inside-out swing path for this shot.

[iacas]

I thought I knew the basics of what causes a slice until I read this article. Someone please tell me this is a mistake: "if your face is two degrees open to the target at impact, and your path is four degrees from the inside, then that’s a ball that will start slightly to the right [of the target line] and turn slightly to the left." An inside path with an open face = draw? Here is the link to the article, go down to the section "Traditional instruction says that an open clubface is what causes a slice. Not true?"

That's correct. A few simple points to make:

1) clubface relative to swing path ALWAYS determines spin. In this case, the swing path is two degrees inside-to-out relative to the clubface angle, hence, draw spin. Contrast that with swinging inside-to-out 2 degrees (to the target line) while having the clubface angle open four degrees (to the target line). With that swing, you'll get a push-cut because the clubface angle is open two degrees relative to the swing path. 2) An open clubface relative to the swing path always causes a fade or a slice (depending on how open). A closed clubface relative to the swing path always causes a draw or a hook (depending on how closed). The second situation is what you have here. 3) A pull-slice is a clubface closed to the target line with a swing path open or out-to-in relative to the clubface. A push slice is a clubface open to the target lien with a swing path open or out-to-in relative to the clubface.

[Williamevanl]

I've got to be honest, I'm college educated with a strong background in science but as soon as iacas chimes in with that "relative to the swing path" my brain explodes.

I thought it was just my problem so I tried to look up some literature to help me understand what that ends up meaning but I can't seem to find anything. Its not really a line is it? Its an angle right so 4 degrees inside on swing path and 2 degrees open with the the club face that is what, open to the swing path or closed to the swing path, does the outcome change with each club? Can someone point me in the right direction?

How many degrees of inside compensates for how many degrees of open, I guess that changes too based on a billion things.

Just to clarify though, If I want to hit a draw I should hit it with an open club face relative to my target line. So I look at my target line and leave the face open as long as I swing from the inside? Curious though what will those draw biased drivers that are so popular do then? Shouldn't they close the face to the target line causing a pull?

[iacas]

How many degrees of inside compensates for how many degrees of open, I guess that changes too based on a billion things.

If the clubface angle is 0 relative to the swing path (at the moment of impact), then the ball will go straight.

If the clubface angle is closed relative to the swing path, the ball will hook. If the clubface angle is open relative to the swing path, the ball will fade. The ball starts on the line of the clubface angle at impact. So if you draw the ball (clubface closed relative to the swing path) but start the ball straight at the target, you're going to miss the target to the left.

Just to clarify though, If I want to hit a draw I should hit it with an open club face relative to my target line.

Yes, unless you want to miss the target to the left.

So I look at my target line and leave the face open as long as I swing from the inside? Curious though what will those draw biased drivers that are so popular do then? Shouldn't they close the face to the target line causing a pull?

All they really do is help to turn slices into pulls, if that. But that's another topic entirely.

[Williamevanl]

Okay while I agree with you Iacas I have to ask, do you find yourself arguing this stuff with people ever. I was just talking to a golf employee a couple weeks back and I asked him about the draw biased drivers and how a draw is hit with an open club face and he looked at me like I was crazy and basically said there was no way in his mind he could imagine a draw hit with a club face open to the target line.

I believe ^ but I know an awful lot of instructors that teach the turning wrist over or closing the club face to hit a draw and holding the clubface open or holding the release to hit a fade. How did these contradictions happen?

Lastly, the problem I have with the relative to the swingpath terminology is that it is more of a concept and less of an immediately observable position or point in time. At impact it isn't discernible if the club is open or closed relative to the swing path. It clearly illustrates why it is important not only to get into certain positions in the golf swing but also how you get into those positions. Open or closed relative to the swingpath is a measurement of where the club was moments ago coupled with the position of the club 'and the face angle' at impact and thats confusing as hell I'm sure for a lot of people.

Example of you just google how to hit a draw you get:
Hitting a draw requires the golfer to hit the inside portion of the golf ball with a slightly closed club face in order to put the correct side spin on the ball.

[golfdad]

i think this is a case where we may need to go with the general knowledge or even, wisdom, instead of precise numbers, because in the link to the golf channel article, the author, not a physics prof with empirical data on his "thesis", basically coined this "50%" rule as a way to communicate,,,a general idea. really, when standing over a ball, how can a human being set a club 2 degree open reliably? impossible. further, even if we manage to have a machine to measure a 2 degree open club face at address, at impact, the club face has a very low chance to maintain that 2 degree openness.

my understanding is that life will be much simpler is we just square the face at address and "play around" with the swing path (ie, how inside) in order to find an acceptable draw path. keep it simple.

"How many degrees of inside compensates for how many degrees of open, I guess that changes too based on a billion things."

disagree. at least 2 trillions.

[Williamevanl]

Another quick question. If there is a tree directly in front of me and I want to draw/hook around it I should concentrate on keeping the club face open through impact and swing well from the inside?

How many people find themselves doing this when they need to hook it around a tree? We all know the answer to this right, line up where you want to start the ball and close the club face or point it where you want the ball to end up but what keeps the ball from crashing into the tree that the club face is now pointed at? If you do this right its the swing path that determines the starting line but the club face that determines the shot shape? Wait what?

[iacas]

I was just talking to a golf employee a couple weeks back and I asked him about the draw biased drivers and how a draw is hit with an open club face and he looked at me like I was crazy and basically said there was no way in his mind he could imagine a draw hit with a club face open to the target line.

Draws can't be hit with an open clubface relative to the swing path.

And that's how draw-biased drivers "work." They close up the relative angle. I think they're fixing the wrong problem, though. Most people slice because they cut across the ball from the outside - a pull slice. These people need to fix their swing path. All a draw biased club can really do for these people is turn their pull-slices into straighter pulls. The minority of slicers who slice with a straight swing path and an open clubface will hit the ball straight(er) with a draw biased club.

I believe ^ but I know an awful lot of instructors that teach the turning wrist over or closing the club face to hit a draw and holding the clubface open or holding the release to hit a fade. How did these contradictions happen?

If you want to have this discussion, you really need to understand the things you've said you don't understand.

If you swing straight down the target line at impact (matching the swing path to the target line), a closed clubface will cause a draw and an open clubface will cause a slice. But almost no good player hits a normal draw or fade by trying to manipulate the clubface with their hands. They do it with their setup position.

Lastly, the problem I have with the relative to the swingpath terminology is that it is more of a concept and less of an immediately observable position or point in time.

Sorry, that's the terminology people use because it's the correct terminology. Others seem to know what it means.

Hitting a draw requires the golfer to hit the inside portion of the golf ball with a slightly closed club face in order to put the correct side spin on the ball.

Googling something doesn't mean you get the correct answer.

Heck, it's virtually impossible to hit the inside of the golf ball with a closed clubface. Think about it. Put a club down behind a ball. Close the clubface 30°. Where's the impact point? On the outside of the golf ball, not the inside.

Another quick question. If there is a tree directly in front of me and I want to draw/hook around it I should concentrate on keeping the club face open through impact and swing well from the inside?

Unless you want to hit the tree, yeah... You need an open clubface (relative to the final target line) to start the ball to the right of the tree, and a swing path that's inside the clubface angle to put draw spin on it.

But most people won't try to do it "through impact." In this situation you're much better off simply aiming your clubface right of the tree, then closing your stance even more so your swing path produces draw spin. In other words, you have two options. The first is a push-draw. The second is more of a straight-draw bordering on a pull-draw.

[Williamevanl]

I'm not arguing with you Iacas, we agree with each other. I'm really just playing devils advocate and trying to illustrate why its confusing.

If you did a poll of how to hook a ball around a tree, how many people would say to make sure the club face was facing to the right of the tree and how many people would said the club face needs to be pointing at the green while the feet need to be aligned to the right of the tree? 'or inside swing'

oops edit war, sorry ^ good explanation. Its a pull hook really at that point, yep that all makes sense to me. *scampers off*

[MiniMoe]

I think that stat about having an open face with an inside-out swing path will produce a draw is a slight miss-representation of what is actually happening throughout t swing. If you take a snap shot at impact and the face is open, does that mean the face is going to stay open? Of course not. If the club face is open 10 degrees in the moments before impact, but is only open 4 degrees at impact, which way is the face moving? It it rotating over, so just after impact, the face might be closed by 10 degrees. That movement will produce a draw. The fact that the face is open at impact is not enough information to know what kind of shot it will produce. Taking a little snip-it of a swing and saying that it will produce a certain kind of shot pattern is ridiculous.

[Williamevanl]

Why did you have to do that mo? I thought the logic here was that the face could actually remain open 2 degrees 'to the target line coming from the inside 4 degrees' and a beautiful push draw would result. *lets pretend a machine did this for the sake of argument*

I like how this also seems to suggest that if you do shut the face and you are properly coming from the inside and you hit the target perfectly then you are probably aiming right of the target to begin with. Maybe? I see a lot of good golfers do this.

[iacas]

I think that stat about having an open face with an inside-out swing path will produce a draw is a slight miss-representation of what is actually happening throughout t swing. If you take a snap shot at impact and the face is open, does that mean the face is going to stay open? Of course not. If the club face is open 10 degrees in the moments before impact, but is only open 4 degrees at impact, which way is the face moving? It it rotating over, so just after impact, the face might be closed by 10 degrees. That movement will produce a draw. The fact that the face is open at impact is not enough information to know what kind of shot it will produce. Taking a little snip-it of a swing and saying that it will produce a certain kind of shot pattern is ridiculous.

Simple answer: the clubface doesn't have enough time to close enough to appreciably affect the sidespin on the golf ball.

I have the numbers somewhere but I'm too lazy to look them up. It's well less than one degree with virtually any club hit on the sweet spot. I think it affects the sidespin something like less than +/- 10 or 15 RPM. Yes, better players will "feel" as if they "turn down" the club through impact. Johnny Miller loves to pretend he could do it. But feelings aren't always reality, and this is one of those cases.

[Williamevanl]

^yesd

Moe might be the best golfer on this entire forum and an open club face *to the target line* draw even for him is a tough pill to swallow.

[MiniMoe]

I just don't believe that if you swing from inside to out with an open face, you hit a draw. Somewhere the face has to shut down a bit to produce the side spin needed for the draw. If you had a square face with a inside to out path, that would produce a glancing blow and produce the needed sides spin... but with an open face at impact?? seems like the spin produced would be counter productive for a draw.

BTW.. the subconscious is great at producing the shot see in our minds. Mechanics be damned.

And... if the club is way open and is working closed at the moment of impact, you are not actually doing it on feel, it is just a continuation of what was happening prior to impact.

[Williamevanl]

I just don't believe that if you swing from inside to out with an open face, you hit a draw.

And thats why this is argument is so awesome, not even great golfers agree on whats happening. The club turning over shouldn't do anything. Its two opposing forces, the inside swing path over compensates for the fade spin 'from face angle' and the face angle allows you to start the ball right of your target line with draw spin. Fantastic. *Runs out screaming*

[groovezilla79]

just don't believe that if you swing from inside to out with an open face, you hit a draw.

I don't know about you, Moe, but I'm gonna go try it tomorrow and see what happens.

Thanks a lot Iacas, this is gonna keep me up all night.... I just know I'm gonna lie awake, stare at the ceiling and hit shots in my head tonight :)