The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[uttexas]

Start with short game lessons (putting, chipping, bunkers) and buy the S&T; book regardless. The quickest way to lower scores is the short game, not the full swing. The S&T; book has the best, most accurate, most clear explanation of swing path and ball flight geometry/physics I have read. Then incorporate an aspect of S&T; into your swing. If it makes sense to you and feels more natural, go ahead with S&T; on your own.

S&T; can be thought of as a group of swing characteristics found in the best ball strikers throughout golf's history. You don't have to adopt the entire S&T; swing right away to improve your golf swing. Personally, I have found that S&T; is easier, simpler, more powerful than lifting the club up while shifting weight back, then dropping the club down as the weight shifts forward.

[boogielicious]

I've read the book twice and done four indoor practice sessions and today, my first video session. Unfortunately, I can't post the video as it was an ASTAR system. I will try to get some actual video soon. I seem to have one quirk that I was unable to correct in the session. During the transition from backswing to downswing, my shoulder center moves a bit forward and sometimes down.

My takeaway looks good and I am bringing my hands inside. The hands pass through the right bicep on the way to the top. I am keeping my weight ~55/45 until the transistion. My spine tilt looks like the photos in the book at the top. It is the hip action without shoulder center movement that I have having trouble with. Page 73 talks about leaning into your left leg to start the hip action. When I lean, my shoulder center moves as well.

Are there drills that help work on this action? I have to add that my left knee is not that good and I may subconsciously be favoring it (had surgery last March).

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[iacas]

Are there drills that help work on this action? I have to add that my left knee is not that good and I may subconsciously be favoring it (had surgery last March).

You could do this drill and modify it to start from the top. If your shoulder center goes forward your head would have to also, so this will stop that:

[i-Guy]

I have read many posts stating how S&T; felt much more natural than the traditional swing and how it is supposed to alieve some pressure on the back because of less torque on the back, but my experience at the range was the exact opposite. When I tried it out at the range,

Interesting point...I have heard many things about the S&T; being hard on the back and I was wondering if folks like

"david_wedzik" or "Iacas" could provide information on why the S&T; would bother someones back...like what they could be doing wrong in the patten to cause this???

[iacas]

Interesting point...I have heard many things about the S&T; being hard on the back and I was wondering if folks like

Any golf swing can be "hard on your back" if you do it wrong. Additionally, if you're stretching muscles that haven't been used in awhile (which isn't to say that S&T; requires muscles or more muscles, just different ones that may have been unused for awhile) you'll feel it, but it shouldn't be a "pressure" feeling.

Those who say S&T; is hard on your back are simply naysayers. So far as I know no S&Ter; on Tour has ever missed an event due to a back injury or even HAD a back injury. My back feels better after hitting 500 balls now than it used to after hitting 100. Some of the key parts of the S&T; are extension of the back, thus relieving pressure.

[david_wedzik]

Interesting point...I have heard many things about the S&T; being hard on the back and I was wondering if folks like

I had actually answered this, for the most part, earlier in this string:

"When you first try SnT (as with many physical activities when using a different form than you are used to) there may be muscle groups being "activated" that you aren't normally using. You were likely just feeling these areas pushed further than is normal for you. Not doing anything wrong mind you...just different feelings." Erik had already gotten to this but with SnT we are prescribing that you extend certain areas and thus avoid compression which is the biggest issue with bad backs for golfers. Hunched over...no good. Extension...good. A lot of times in this discussion the Reverse C question comes up so I'll address that here. In the Reverse C look of players like Johnny Miller, Nicklaus and so many others the back was actually arched and the knees were still flexed into finish. They were not extending as we would want and the lumbar area was compressed because of that. In a "SnT" finish the ankles, legs, butt, back, neck, etc. ALL should be extended and free of compression. The similar look to the Reverse C is because of the FORWARD motion of the hips combined with all this extension. The "perpetual" forward keeps in the second axis tilt all the way to finish and also allows the golfer to stay properly inclined to the ground. Dave

[i-Guy]

Thanks both "david_wedzik" and "Iacas" ...I know my question was kind of open ended but you answered great! I mean there could be lots of different reasons a person could hurt their back while doing the S&T; (or any golf swing) and it would be real hard to define the problem without seeing what they were doing. I really liked "david_wedzik" definition of the Reverse C differences.

I have experienced some back pain while learning the S&T; but then I am not working with someone (qualified S&T; instructor) and I could be doing some of the pattern incorrectly...like for insatnce I went to my local EW and was hitting balls indoors and I talk to a guy that works there a lot about golf swings (he is a very good player and knows a lot) and we have been talking about the S&T; and I think he is starting to see some of the advantages of it as he educates himself and listens to me...anyway he was watching me swing and he noted that I was taking the club more outside then he thought I should for the S&T; as I was not getting my "push draw" going and sure enough as we worked on me feeling the club going more over my right bicep on the backswing I started just rippig the ball with a slight draw (6 iron 195 avg). I hit quite a few balls and went home and felt fine today so I think I was getting the club too upright going back and probably making a compensating move on the downswing to try to get it back on plane for impact...

[david_wedzik]

I think I was getting the club too upright going back and probably making a compensating move on the downswing to try to get it back on plane for impact...

Getting the club too upright will certainly cause a compensating move and many times, for better players, that move is to artificially tilt your upper COG (axis) to the right on the downswing to shallow it out (rather than than creating secondary axis tilt by moving your hips forward). Not sure without seeing it of course but IF you were doing this it could not only cause some hooks but would certainly put undue strain on your back.

Dave

[i-Guy]

Getting the club too upright will certainly cause a compensating move and many times, for better players, that move is to artificially tilt your upper COG (axis) to the right on the downswing to shallow it out (rather than than creating secondary axis tilt by moving your hips forward). Not sure without seeing it of course but IF you were doing this it could not only cause some hooks but would certainly put undue strain on your back.

Dave,

Thanks for the input...I am finding that I am just going through a learning curve (been using the S&T; for about 5-6 weeks now) as somedays I feel like my swing is somewhere between the S&T; and my old swing (more traditional). However, when I feel like I make a really good S&T; move I am htiting the ball so pure and even when my swing feels in-between I still manage to hit the ball solid and my misses are so much better. Bummer is that I am having shoulder surgery next Monday (laberal tear and rotator cuff tear in my left shoulder) so I will have to start all over in about 4 months...but I want to say that I am not worried as I find the S&T; pattern so much easier to comprehend and find then I have ever did with my old swing. With my old swing, I use to wonder at the beggining of each hitting session when I was going to find my timing but with the S&T; I just address the ball and go through the basics of the S&T; (pre-shot routine) and I immediately start out hitting the ball very well... this works for me!!!

[PS90]

Hi Guys,

I have another question for the S&T; experts on here, whether you are pro or con. And I apologize if this has already been mentioned in this thread - I read through most of the posts on here, but I'll admit that I did skim a lot.

In at least 3 or 4 separate articles, by 3 or 4 separate writers, I have read that, if you have a problem with an ongoing slice (which is my problem) that the S&T; pattern will not help and will only make your swing a lot worse. Here is an example - there are others I've read that are more in-depth, but this is the first one I could find (bottom of the second paragraph of the article):

http://www.•••••••••••••.com/2008/st...wing-problems/

So, this question is more for debate purposes, but, it seems to me that, according to Mike and Andy - that one of the big draws of S&T; is the weight-forward pattern, which, by paraphrasing them, "Would have led to a generation of drawers, rather than a generation of slicers". So, it seems to me that they are saying that one of the biggest improvements using S&T; will be people who slice a lot - just the opposite of these "review" articles on S&T.;

Which is it?

Thanks for the info, again.

[i-Guy]

This is one of the S&T; things I can debate on in that with my old siwng (what some would call a traditional style) I had a real hard time hitting the ball on an inside-to-outside path and I played a relatively straight ball flight by holding off my finish or a bit of a pull slice if I released the club...my bad misses were dead pulls. I could hit on a launch monitor (that measured swing path) for an hour and maybe swing inside-to-outside 25% of the time. Well since I have swithed to the S&T; it is a complete reversal in that now 75% of my swings are inside-to-outside and only 25% are outside-to-inside (probably when I over swing or take the club back too much to the outside) but with the S&T; even my outside-to-inside swings are manageable and are only slight fades....clear as mud!

[iacas]

http://www.•••••••••••••.com/2008/st...wing-problems/

That portion of the paragraph says:

Source: Phil Fanatics URL Of course there is also a potential downside of the Stack and Tilt methodology for the average player: When you already lean too much on your front foot and have a hard time coming from the inside (i.e. you are probably fighting a slice or a pull), the Stack and Tilt will most likely only worsen your problems.

That makes no sense. None. How on earth can you pull the ball or slice it when coming from the inside? Not only does coming from the inside imply draw spin (unless your clubface is REALLY far open), but it has no relevance at all on a pull and will influence the ball (albeit only slightly) in the direction of a PUSH. Furthermore, 95% of average players don't get their weight too far forward, and anyone who thinks this is the case either isn't a very observant person or hasn't had the chance to observe average golfers since, oh... roughly the dawn of time. Go to the range. Look around and ask yourself how many people finish with 95% of their weight on their left foot. Of those who do, ask yourself how many of them are faking it by moving their after impact versus how many are 80/20 or more at impact? Your answers will likely be "zero" unless pros or incredibly good players routinely hit balls at your practice range. That's not all the article gets wrong in the first two paragraphs:

Source: Phil Fanatics URL During the swing, the left shoulder will move down instead of laterally and even more weight will be put on the front foot resulting in an 80/20 weight distribution at the top of the backswing.

That's not even close to correct. The 80/20 number is at impact, not at the top of the backswing.With information that poor, it really should put into doubt the veracity of the value of the opinions expressed elsewhere...

So, this question is more for debate purposes, but, it seems to me that, according to Mike and Andy - that one of the big draws of S&T; is the weight-forward pattern, which, by paraphrasing them, "Would have led to a generation of drawers, rather than a generation of slicers". So, it seems to me that they are saying that one of the biggest improvements using S&T; will be people who slice a lot - just the opposite of these "review" articles on S&T.;

Brady Riggs did a lousy video on S&T; where he claimed the same thing: that if you slice the ball S&T; is not for you. His basis for this was completely out of touch with reality. I'm hesitant to link to it because it's so crappy....

http://www.golf.com/golf/video/artic...661512,00.html . Both the video and the linked article are terrible in terms of their understanding and veracity of background information and stated facts. Brady's one of a collection of known nay-sayers (Nick Faldo, Brandel Chamblee, etc. count as well) and they've not spent seemingly any time trying to truly understand the S&T; pattern. I only quickly skimmed the comments on the Phil Fanatics site, but they seem to back the claim that there's something to this swing that works for a lot of people. People who, it needs to be said, were likely weak faders and slicers beforehand.

Well since I have swithed to the S&T; it is a complete reversal in that now 75% of my swings are inside-to-outside and only 25% are outside-to-inside (probably when I over swing or take the club back too much to the outside) but with the S&T; even my outside-to-inside swings are manageable and are only slight fades!

Yeah, that's what I'd expect. The opposite of what Brady and the author of the PF article say.

[PS90]

Thanks a lot, i-Guy and iacas,

At least you guys are backing up my impression of S&T.; I think it could be an issue of - one naysayer writes an article, even if its totally wrong, then all the other naysayers just mindlessly spew out the same reasons. Or, "monkey see, monkey do"

Makes my feel better that the experts on here agree, at least.

[iacas]

At least you guys are backing up my impression of S&T.; I think it could be an issue of - one naysayer writes an article, even if its totally wrong, then all the other naysayers just mindlessly spew out the same reasons. Or, "monkey see, monkey do"

More like "monkey pee, monkey poo" in this case.

I don't care if someone out there thinks S&T; isn't the best swing out there and they prefer their own method, but it bugs me to no end when they think that because they have some basic misunderstanding of just what S&T; is . Makes them look awfully unprofessional in my opinion, and not at all a "student of the game." The best teachers I can name are all "students of the game." They are constantly evolving their thoughts and ideals and reading - and possibly rejecting - about the swing, new thoughts, etc.

[Phil McGleno]

I don't care if someone out there thinks S&T; isn't the best swing out there and they prefer their own method, but it bugs me to no end when they think that because they have some basic misunderstanding of just what S&T;

Translation (because apparently you won't say it, El Comrade): Brady Riggs is an arrogant, unprofessional punk. Which, as a teacher, seems to be a common flaw among some instructors. And yet other instructors are exactly as you describe: humble students of the game who want to share where they are in what they'd all tell you is a lifelong pursuit of knowledge and understanding.

[i-Guy]

I don't care if someone out there thinks S&T; isn't the best swing out there and they prefer their own method, but it bugs me to no end when they think that because they have some basic misunderstanding of just what S&T;

Well said...I don't think the S&T; is for everyone but it is worth looking into and gaining an understanding of how it works to possibly enhance your ability to play the game...for whatever reason (and I have worked with some pretty good instructors) the traditional swing just doesn't work for me on a consistent basis...that doesn't mean that I am going to bad mouth those instructors or anyone else who does not want to use the S&T...this; game is very personal and each has to find what works for them....

[kfowler]

I have a question regarding weight on the left side. One of the fears I have with something like S&T; and adapting a swing change with out supervision is that I interpret something the wrong way and it adversely affects my swing. The book talks about your weight being on your left side and staying there throughout the swing. The main point being for your head to stay stationary and not moving away from the ball during the backswing.

The way I interpreted this and how to put weight on my left side was to almost lean toward the left. From a FO view, it almost looks like I'm leaning against a wall on my left side. While doing this, I've really struggled with hitting the "S" word.

So I had a lesson with my instructor this past Saturday. We've been really working on setup and balance. I mentioned to him my recent problem and after watching a couple of swings he said it was easy to see what the issue was. I had so much of my weight forward at address that during my downswing, I was almost falling toward the target. You could easily see it on video if you drew a vertical line at my head, FO view. From DL view, it looked like I was falling toward the ball. So we worked on setting up with a more 50/50 weight position. I instantly started hitting the ball much better and the "S" went away.

I went home and reviewed some of the video I have of S&T; players. I noticed that at address, their weight looks much more evenly distributed at address. Is this what S&T; means by being "stacked"? In that your hips and spine angle are centered over middle of their stance vs. a traditional swing where your spine may be slightly tilted away from the target. Everything is essentially "stacked" over the center of your stance. I assume now when S&T; talks about weight being forward is that during your backswing, you don't allow your weight and therefore your head, to shift away from the ball. By keeping your head stationary, you have to keep your weight on your left side.

I wish I had some pics of all this but alas I'm at work and away from my home PC. So can some of you confirm my understanding?

BTW, David if you read this, I still owe you a video. Planned on taping this past weekend but the range was packed. I didn't have space to setup. Hopefully this weekend.

[iacas]

I have a question regarding weight on the left side. One of the fears I have with something like S&T; and adapting a swing change with out supervision is that I interpret something the wrong way and it adversely affects my swing. The book talks about your weight being on your left side and staying there throughout the swing. The main point being for your head to stay stationary and not moving away from the ball during the backswing.

Yes. Also note that your head stays stationary as well because you extend (come out of flexion) and side tilt to the left at an equal rate throughout the backswing while turning your shoulders.

The way I interpreted this and how to put weight on my left side was to almost lean toward the left. From a FO view, it almost looks like I'm leaning against a wall on my left side. While doing this, I've really struggled with hitting the "S" word.

You may be overdoing it. The goal is to get your back almost straight - "stacked" - not to put that much weight left. At address remember it's only 55/45 left.

In S&T; you have an upper center and a lower center. Upper center is roughly the sternum between your collarbones, lower center is typically your belt (or basically the spot in the middle of your body between your belt and your tailbone). At address these two points, from the face-on view, should form a vertical line.

So I had a lesson with my instructor this past Saturday. We've been really working on setup and balance. I mentioned to him my recent problem and after watching a couple of swings he said it was easy to see what the issue was. I had so much of my weight forward at address that during my downswing, I was almost falling toward the target. You could easily see it on video if you drew a vertical line at my head, FO view. From DL view, it looked like I was falling toward the ball. So we worked on setting up with a more 50/50 weight position. I instantly started hitting the ball much better and the "S" went away.

I should read further before responding. What felt more 50/50 to you may have still even been 55/45, and if it was 50/50, well, that's darn close to 55/45 anyway.

I went home and reviewed some of the video I have of S&T; players. I noticed that at address, their weight looks much more evenly distributed at address. Is this what S&T; means by being "stacked"?

See above. The two points being on top of each other is "stacked" and they stay that way to the top of the backswing, at which point the lower center begins driving forward while the upper center remains in place.

In that your hips and spine angle are centered over middle of their stance vs. a traditional swing where your spine may be slightly tilted away from the target. Everything is essentially "stacked" over the center of your stance. I assume now when S&T; talks about weight being forward is that during your backswing, you don't allow your weight and therefore your head, to shift away from the ball. By keeping your head stationary, you have to keep your weight on your left side.

Yeah. You've got it now.