The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[Fatphil]

I watched the pros hitting shots using S&T; but never saw them lock up the back knee as taught by the S&T; guys. (just an observation)

As Erik said these are exceptional atheletes who have incredible upper body action. I would like to see a before and after of a 15 handcper who has been professionally taught S&T.;

To me the biggest hurdle for the avg Joe (me included) is lack of flexibility in the lat muscles combined w/ weak hands and wrists that leads to an early release (casting) and even a negative uncocking of the wrists in the backswing. I just get the feeling S&T; works for a good player with sound fundementals but is a bandaid for a higher hndcper.

[lobsterzilla]

if anything with the right leg extension during the backswing it allows the "average unflexable" golfer a -Massive- advantage in hip turn.

Stack and Tilt makes it easier to coil. When the right leg extends it allows the hips to rotate ~45 degrees or greater. If a golfer can manage a 45 degree shoulder turn it will turn into a full 90 degree shoulder turn from adress due to the shoulder and hip turn together.

If you can rotate 45 degrees you have more than enough flexability for S n T.


And you're not taught to "lock out" the right leg, you're taught to extend it

here's Charlie Wi, you can clearly see his almost completely straight right leg on the backswing.

[iacas]

I've been toying around with the S&T; and like low penetrating draw I get, but I hate the miss which is a nasty hook. Is this normal?

No. The miss should be a push, and the ball should be high. If you're hitting the ball low and hard to the left it's one of a few common flaws. First thing to look at is where your ball's starting. It should be to the right.

That being said, should I stop paying attention to Golf Digest, Playing Lessons, etc because most tips and theories are geared for a classic swing?

Even before I'd switched to S&T; I ignored the magazines. They're often worth less than what you pay for 'em.

I watched the pros hitting shots using S&T; but never saw them lock up the back knee as taught by the S&T; guys. (just an observation)

They don't teach you that.

I would like to see a before and after of a 15 handcper who has been professionally taught S&T.;

Look on YouTube. Lots of before/after videos. Here's one from Dave:

I've personally seen guys go from hitting their 5-irons 145 yards with a weak cut to hitting nice tight three-yard draws with their 7-iron 155 in a matter of 20 minutes.

To me the biggest hurdle for the avg Joe (me included) is lack of flexibility in the lat muscles combined w/ weak hands and wrists that leads to an early release (casting) and even a negative uncocking of the wrists in the backswing. I just get the feeling S&T; works for a good player with sound fundementals but is a bandaid for a higher hndcper.

I think you have that backwards... in my experience S&T; is easiest for the higher handicapper to pick up, and that starts right from the first of their "true" fundamentals.

S&T; came about when Plummer/Bennett classified a bunch of pro swings and a bunch of sucky golfer swings (to use my terms, certainly not theirs) and to figure out what the differences are. It isn't in flexibility or strength or whatever - one of the two jokes that his "workout routine" is to eat Twinkies... I've said it before a few times, but I saw the improvements my wife made too. Impressive stuff. Heck, even my seven-year-old... Give it a try or don't. This thread's more for people who are doing it and want to bounce questions off of people, etc. than people who aren't sure about it, but don't take what I'm saying as fact. Look up videos on YouTube. Check out some of Dave's videos http://youtube.com/thegolfevolution . Buy the book if you're so inclined and read the first few chapters (or just go to Barnes and Noble and flip through the first few chapters - they will likely convince you to buy the book). The greatest thing about S&T;, for me, is that it simplifies things tremendously. A lot of "timing" elements are removed from the swing and when you miss, you know why.

[uttexas]

I'd definitely like to learn some more about S&T;, so how do you guys recommend I start out (book, dvd)?

Just ordered the book today. Cheapest price I could find was at overstock.com

Here's a good review of the DVD on youtube (also contains a lot of S&T; instruction) Been working on the range every day this week, and couldn't be happier. Playing my second 18 on Saturday. Working on keeping weight forward, keeping right elbow connected to the right torso at the top of the backswing, and thrusting gluts forward and up at impact.

[Bart]

Apologies if this is off-topic...

I'm just getting back into the game, and I'm taking lessons. Last week, my instructor said my next lesson would focus on hip rotation. I'd been following this thread, and so I asked him about S&T; during my lesson today.

Interestingly enough, he said his former college teammate is the guy who goes to all the tour stops and coaches the pros who've adopted the S&T.; Apparently, Plummer/Bennett don't like to stray too far from home.

So my instructor is in the middle of teaching me what's probably the "traditional" swing (inside/out, etc.), and I've had genuinely amazing results, especially in curing my enormous slice--in less than six weeks--but I was focused on the hip issue. I asked my instructor if S&T; could help with my hip turn. He said that he liked the S&T; for some players--and even teaches it--but that it requires a serious committment and there needs to be a reason to make that committment.

Basically, he said that he only recommends S&T; to players that have a disproportionately hard time shifting their weight to the front and that he sees that trait most often in kids (obviously, some players of all abilities have that same problem...but I'm pretty sure he was generalizing).

Regarding my own hip turn, he demonstrated one drill and I immediately went from 19 degrees open to 45 degrees open, so I guess he was right.

Bottom line though, focusing on this thread, is that my instructor is a big proponent of the system for the right player. It just doesn't happen to be me (or so he says).

[david_wedzik]

This vid is a concern for me continuing on the S&T; method...

Great posts all...I'm enjoying reading the comments and seeing some of the feedback. Most of it is dead on and speaks to the essence of Stack and Tilt.

As far as this video from Brady goes Erik laid things out very well. There is some back story in this case but even without that some of the comments are laughable. "Average, recreational golfers already are too far forward"...not sure which average golfers Brady is watching but not the same ones I am. Please remember...the more forward your weight is...the more forward the center of the swing arc is...and, thus, the further on the backside of the arc you hit the ball. Backside of the arc equals in to out which equals DRAWS. My point is that if the recreational golfers weight was actually too much forward that player would be drawing and overdrawing all the balls they hit. I think we can pretty much say with certainty that is not the case. One more thing to this point...the stock shot with the Stack and Tilt is a push/draw that does not cross over the intended target line. When we teach someone Stack and Tilt principles we are attempting to get that golfer to swing MORE in to out. Brady's video explains Stack and Tilt as if it is meant to help the player (who already swings in to out) swing more out to in (as he clearly states that SnT will help the better player who swings too much in to out). It is worth noting one more time in this thread that, if we had taught golfers to put their weight forward and handle forward and move further forward as they moved into impact for the past 100 or so years we would have generations of drawers of the ball (instead of slicers). Dave

[lobsterzilla]

I can't speak for him obviously, but since you already have a "traditional swing" I can only assume the commitment you'd need to make would be the commitment to change to a new swing. Now if you're willing to do that (it really doesn't take that long), I dont see why you wouldnt

[david_wedzik]

I'd been following this thread, and so I asked him about S&T; during my lesson today.

Not sure who your instructor is and where he gets his information but if it helps I can tell you for A FACT, firsthand, that Mike and Andy are out on tour teaching their own players about 37 weeks a year. Nobody is doing that for them. As far as the SnT being for you my honest opinion is the principles work for EVERYBODY that is capable of playing golf in a "normal" capacity. That said...if what you are doing is working then by all means stick to it!

Dave

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Quote:

I guess that's all relative, before my hands were behing the ball at impact and I hit a high weak slice. Compared to what I am hitting now, it seems low and penetrating.

Without seeing the swing, do you know what could be causing the hook? Thanks

[david_wedzik]

I guess that's all relative, before my hands were behing the ball at impact and I hit a high weak slice. Compared to what I am hitting now, it seems low and penetrating.

Where is the ball starting? This is very important to help further without seeing video. And be sure you REALLY know where you are aiming. Is it starting to the right and over hooking to the other side of your intended target? Or is it starting straight or left of your intended target and then hooking from there?

[Fatphil]

OK OK I'm sold,,,off to the range at lunch to try it out!! will report back.

[Fatphil]

So I go to the range at lunch to try this out..the result was kind of unexpected. After a small bucket obviously you can't tell much but I went to the range thinking it was a big change to my upper body...actually my biggest surprise was how well it controlled my lower body...I had no sway..didn't even think about my back knee or hip sliding back. The upper body action was a bit funky,,had a bit of trouble with a slight pull and getting the hands inside while controlling the club didn't go real well but all in all I was very pleased with how an upper body move had such a positive effect on keeping my lower body stable. No golf tomorrow...turkey day!! but looking to work on it again Friday..may even play with S&T; on Sat.

[RIduffer]

actually my biggest surprise was how well it controlled my lower body...I had no sway..didn't even think about my back knee or hip sliding back.

Yup. Feels much more natural to me. Letting my right knee straighten a bit allows a good hip turn, and I don't have to jump onto the left leg on the downswing.

I bought the S&T; book recently, and went through the Basic Form In Thirty Minutes exercise at the range today (pg. 29). Solid contact right from the get-go. I'd say out of a 60 ball bucket I hit 2 fat shots and 3 thin. Direction was about a 10-yard pull or 10-yard push until I got to step 5 (arms straight to finish) when I began hitting nice straight shots and push draws. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but so far this book is doing alot more for me than 101 Golf Tips Mag .

[lobsterzilla]

definintely +1 for the book.

[lobsterzilla]

Wi is playing pretty fantastic at the World Cup...


sticking approaches left and right from what i've seen.

[mrprovisional]

Went out today utilizing the S&T; technique. As of today, im a 100% believer and now converted over to the new swing. I'm still struggling with a little bit of a sway and hooked only once today. I love the ball flight with my solid contact and using my TM burner 3wood. I had shots way over 210 yards and made it on a 200 yard par 3 hole with one shot. Im almost finished with the book but i'm sure ill be reading it over and over again. I shot my personal lowest with a 98 and only took 2 mulligans (1 in the front and 1 in the back). I cant wait to go back out again.

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Where is the ball starting? This is very important to help further without seeing video. And be sure you REALLY know where you are aiming. Is it starting to the right and over hooking to the other side of your intended target? Or is it starting straight or left of your intended target and then hooking from there?

I rarely have the miss of the push right. It's either one of these three:

• a ball that starts right of the target then draws to the target - 50%
• top - 20%
• hook - 30%, it starts at the target then hooks 10-15 yards left and is way short. I feel like I may be coming way too much from the inside or leaning back at impact, does that sound right

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

I rarely have the miss of the push right. It's either one of these three:

Today's session at the range went much better than yesterdays. I had many less tops/thins and hooks. The biggest difference was that during the transition from the top instead of using the tip of imagining that I was crushing a can under my left foot, that I got from

Golf Digest , I used the feeling of throwing the butt end of the club towards the target. The result was a better compression at impact, about 10 more yards distance, and the sound of a well struck ball. I am not sure if this is what you're supposed to do, but it created better constancy.