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"The Stack and Tilt Swing: The Definitive Guide..." by Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett
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iacas, in Reading Room
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Note: This thread is 2187 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!
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It is not. Jeez. A golf course can put whatever par they want down for a hole. They can make one set of tees a par five and another set of tees a par four for the same gender if they want. They can pretty much do whatever. And it happens, in the wild. We've all seen relatively flat 410-yard par fives. When I play the white tees at some courses, there are "par fives" that I can hit PW into. At some other courses, they'll split the par on the scorecard and call that a par four. I understand what you both are saying about the official guidelines, but they're just that: guidelines. They're not regulations, and what could anyone do if there's a card with a hole listed as "Par 5/4"? Remove them from the course rating database? Not gonna happen. It doesn't imply that, no. There are holes where the course will list something as a par five that is played as a par four, and if they enter hole-by-hole scores it'll correctly apply net double max. It says "should." It doesn't say "shall" or "must."
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I believe this statement is incorrect (see Appendix F quote below). It also seems to imply that it is the player’s responsibility to determine the par of each hole for purposes of handicap posting. If so, this is contradicted several places in the 2020 Rules of Handicapping. Definition of par: “The score that a scratch player would generally be expected to achieve on a hole under normal course and weather conditions, allowing for two strokes on the putting green (see Appendix F). The Authorized Association or, at the discretion of the National Association, the golf club is responsible for adjudicating par (see Appendix A).” [emphasis added] From Appendix A: "Apply and/or communicate the stipulated procedures for establishing par...” is a listed responsibility for everyone except the player. Also from Appendix A, the Golf Club/Handicap committee is responsible for “Display a Course Handicap and Playing Handicap adjustment table for each set of tees, for players’ reference.” Par is part of the calculations of Course Handicap and Playing Handicap. From Appendix E: “The Rules of Golf state: “The Committee is responsible for publishing on the scorecard or somewhere else that is visible (for example, near the first tee) the order of holes at which handicap strokes are to be given or received. (See Rules of Golf, Committee Procedures, Rule 5I (4)). It is recommended that a stroke index allocation be applied over 18-holes, split into six triads with each hole ranked on its playing difficulty relative to par.” So assignment of par is implied here also. From Appendix F: “It is important that an accurate par be established for each hole on a golf course for both men and women, and these values should be printed alongside each hole on the scorecard.” (Explicitly states that the scorecards cannot “say whatever they want.”) -
Because they can. Because the old guys at The Golf Club of Somewhere have always played the fifth hole as a par five, so gosh darnit, it's gonna say "5" on the scorecard. The WHS says that even if people use the scorecard par instead of the true par (whatever you want to call it) for their net double max thing, the effects on the handicap system will be negligible.
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By why would they? You need an accurate par to calculate your "playing handicap", to determine what net double bogey is and to score in forms of play such as Stableford. -
Dude, we're on page 10. You're going to have to be more specific. If you're referring to the video in the first post, it's not meant to be completely scientific. It's meant to be illustrative, and I feel that it is. Two additional points: 1) My arms were not "loose" in the first swings, and 2) the shoulders (which move the arms) count as "the arms" for the purposes of this discussion. Those two points address almost everything else you've got to say: You keep substituting "tense" or "stiff" when I'm saying the muscles are working or active. Tense/stiff isn't the same as active/working. You leave out that the muscles which move the arms across your chest, etc. are part of your "arms" for this discussion. They move the arms relative to your torso, etc. My arm muscles are not "passive" at all. Nor are the muscles which move the arms relative to my torso, which I've included in the discussion as "arms." Look at the way the arms work in a long driver. They're anything but "passive." Look at how far Jamie Sadlowski can still drive the ball from his knees. He's limited in his rotation and his ability to use the ground for jumping, but his arms can still move across his chest, fold, lift, etc. Again, the muscles which move the arms relative to the torso are part of the "arms" for this discussion. There's no such thing in a good golf swing. The arms contribute speed and power and expend effort. That video is stupid, man. "Try running with stiff legs"? Again, you're just substituting the word "stiff" when I'm saying the arm muscles (and those that move the arms) are WORKING, expending effort. They're not just limp ropes hanging from the shoulder socket. Working muscles don't have to be stiff. The guy who wins the race in that video has legs that are WORKING. This is a horrible straw man. Never have I said to make your arms "stiff." You're misunderstanding what "relaxed" means. By "relaxed" I mean not working, I don't mean "stiff." C'mon man. No, it's not. His arm (and the muscles that move his arm) are working hard and contributing the vast majority of the speed of a pitch.
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