"The Stack and Tilt Swing: The Definitive Guide..." by Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett

[iacas]

There is literally only one item in the book that I don’t necessarily agree with: the photo of the Stack & Tilt follow-through on page 77. Why is the club shaft pointed in that direction up and to the right?

Well, first, he's not quite done with his follow-through there. That's a posed swing, and his arms are still almost parallel to the ground. So it's not quite the end of the swing...

Second, the club will do that the more you can maintain your flying wedge. Give it a try. Third, again, it's a posed swing, so where he looks in reality (i.e. when the weight of the clubhead is moving and your arms have momentum, etc.) may be different than where he looks when posed.

One last thing: I will say that I am not convinced a weight shift is as disruptive to the Stack and Tilt system as they make it out to be. As long as you stack the weight forward before the downswing, it seems to me like it wouldn’t change the rest of the swing much at all (other than maybe making it more difficult to consistently find the right arm positions at the top of the swing).

Lemme take a stab at that.

Weight moving back is usually accompanied by a maintaining of the right knee flex. Your hips won't turn as much, your right hip won't get higher, and your head drifts right. Your shoulder turn becomes flatter and the hands don't get anywhere near as deep as they should be. You lift to complete your backswing, and your right elbow leaves the ribcage. Coming down, you not only need to time the head shifting to the right, but you have to somehow delay the opening of the hips since they didn't rotate enough to start. Plus, if they rotate too much too soon from there, they'll get in the way of your hands and you'll come over it every time. Also, in addition to timing the head movement back to the left, you have to time the club dropping back on plane. Sure seems like an awful lot of work. Plus, the "lack of a weight shift" in S&T; is more of a feeling. Since your chest and thorax rotate about a point in your spine, and your arms and the club have weight, the truth is the weight does move to your right side on the backswing. S&T; just keeps your head centered and, because your left knee is bent more, it feels as if the weight has stayed there. So to Mike and Andy, "weight shift" is synonymous with "head movement" and goes against the "feeling" of S&T;, but not the reality of it.

I just think they are slightly overstating how disruptive it is to the Stack and Tilt system.

I don't. What's their #1 fundamental? Hitting the ground in the same place every time... good luck doing that while moving your head right and left.

[david_wedzik]

Wow, that was a great read! (Long flight today = I read the whole thing.) The book strikes the perfect combination of clear theory and specific technical instructions. Beyond that, the systematic approach that they lay out for working on your swing is extremely well-designed and practical. Genius!

Glad you loved the book!

There is literally only one item in the book that I don’t necessarily agree with: the photo of the Stack & Tilt follow-through on page 77. Why is the club shaft pointed in that direction up and to the right? Shouldn’t it be following the same arc as the backswing and downswing?

Bottom line is this is what finish looks like with the flying wedge completely maintained. It is very correct - that said it is not a common position you see in that even the greatest players swinging at full speed let go of the flying wedge into the follow through.

One last thing: I will say that I am not convinced a weight shift is as disruptive to the Stack and Tilt system as they make it out to be. As long as you stack the weight forward before the downswing, it seems to me like it wouldn’t change the rest of the swing much at all

"Potentially" disruptive for a number of reasons - Erik beat me to this and did a great job so read his reply on this point. It can be done by moving the spine back to vertical as you start down but the many pitfalls are not worth the risk. Too many variables.

Dave

[laxbballgolf]

Cool, thanks for the feedback, guys!

Bottom line is this is what finish looks like with the flying wedge completely maintained. It is very correct - that said it is not a common position you see in that even the greatest players swinging at full speed let go of the flying wedge into the follow through.

Ahhh, I totally overlooked the flying wedge's effect, so thanks for pointing it out. It makes total sense, but I might stick with a more traditional finish, at least for now (I have bigger issues to focus on, and I don't think my finish is causing me any problems). Plus, correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that consciously forcing oneself to hold the flying wedge could sap some power if done incorrectly, or could result in some overcompensation as people try to fight the momentum of the swing's natural arc, actually making the finish more complicated for some people.

My take is that it will be ok if I just let my athletic instincts take the lead for the finish as long as I am not making the mistake of consciously trying to release and roll the hands over too much like they warn about in the book.

"Potentially" disruptive for a number of reasons - Erik beat me to this and did a great job so read his reply on this point. It can be done by moving the spine back to vertical as you start down but the many pitfalls are not worth the risk. Too many variables.

Yeah, this is basically the reasoning I expected. You guys are probably right. I guess I just meant to make the point that the Stack and Tilt system is at least potentially compatible with a weight shift, and therefore it's not as extreme of a swing overhaul as many people make it out to be.

[Fastrack]

Great book....this book explains why I have been fighting with many un-natural move I feel struggling with and forced by many teaching pro over years. Now I feel I’m in more control and feel more relaxed with a smooth swing.

[RC]

The authors have done a great job explaining the S&T; swing. They should be good at it since they are the "definers" of the swing. But I think they have gone beyond that, and made this book better than most swing guides, even those written by great teachers.

The reasons are: they have provided a clear discussion with very good pictures, they explain the "whys" and "hows" of the swing, and they provide diagnostic and "fixing" drills for just about every contingency. You can tell from reading the book, their teaching experiences have provided an excellent background for explain things to real golfers. In other words, this book is a complete guide for the full S&T; swing. If you note your ball flight and read the book, you will know how to swing using this method.

Of course, I think nothing is better than the eyes of a teacher, one on one. However, there are so few qualified S&T; teachers in many areas of the country that this book easily qualifies as the next best thing.

[kfowler]

Finished the book yesterday. One of the best golf books I've read. Explanations are clear and concise. Very logical layout. Couple of items I wished they had addressed. One is balance. Second was driver. I would have liked a little more detail on hitting a driver with S&T.;

Played my first round using S&T; today. I'm a full convert. One of my best striking days ever. Still went through some periods of inconsistency.

[laxbballgolf]

I can easily picture myself re-reading this book many times over the years, it strikes me as the perfect overview of every important detail and mechanism of a sound golf swing...perfect for beginners and also perfect to read over again to remind yourself about all of the important little details. Awesome!

[david_wedzik]

Nothing to say really other than I am completely enjoying all of your comments about the book (and listening/learning from the critiques). I am going to very much enjoy passing a great many of these thoughts on to Mike and Andy directly...they will surely be glad to hear them. Merry Christmas all!

Dave

[boogielicious]

Santa brought me the book. I've read half of it on Christmas day and am enjoying it so far. I'm turning into my Dad. We used to buy him these 800 page history books on the Civil War for Xmas. He would then dissappear for a few hours then come out and say, "Thanks for the book, it was great." Man he could read fast!

What I like so far is the step by step approach to building the swing. What I don't like is the fact there is 10" of snow on the ground outside and it's 23 degrees. I will begin to work on the stroke at indoor hitting bays as soon as possible.

My question is: Do I need ball flight to really see if the form is working correctly? The two indoor hitting places have video analysis, so I can see my form. But I can't see the ball flight.

Scott

[iacas]

My question is: Do I need ball flight to really see if the form is working correctly? The two indoor hitting places have video analysis, so I can see my form. But I can't see the ball flight.

If you're overhauling your swing, oftentimes it's best not to worry about where the ball goes.

I had one lesson where I hit the biggest push-slices imaginable because I was working on exaggerating something in the left wrist. No way I'd play golf doing basically that drill, but I'm using the winter time to make some changes to my swing and it's good to not have to worry about where the ball's going because I can't "talk myself out of" things.

[boogielicious]

Thanks Erik.

I finished the book yesterday and I really liked the concept layout. The only chapter that was a bit fuzzy for me was the first part of Circles and Cones when they were talking about "attachments". I understand the physics, but I thought they made it confusing in that section.

I've only really been playing seriously since July this year. Before that, I played maybe once every three or four years for the past 30 years, so I don't have a lot of bad habits ingrained in my swing. I've also read 6 or 7 other books to get up to speed, Ben Hogan, Harvey Penick, Hank Haney, Nicholas, etc. They are all good books and each has some valuable information.

But I think Bennet and Plummer did a better job with physiology and explaining what your body is trying to do. I also like the concept of keeping your body center in place during the swing to simplify your motion. Keeping your weight forward for me makes sense because your are countering the weight of the club and arms moving backward during the takeaway. The only reason weight shifts to the right in a conventional swing is because the club and arm weight is to the right. The S&T; counter balance corrects this.

I want to start on the S&T; right away, but winter is a challenge. Are there any tips on how to evaluate ground contact location using indoor mats? I've tried the "penny on the mat behind the ball" and masking tape.

Thanks,

Scott

[david_wedzik]

If you're overhauling your swing, oftentimes it's best not to worry about where the ball goes.

"...Imperatives and Essentials operate to correct faulty procedures, so if they seem elusive it is invariably because you are trying to execute them while you hit the ball - in your accustomed manner. That must all be reversed. Learn to do those things even if you miss the ball - until you no longer miss it. There is no succesful alternative."

Homer Kelly - The Golfing Machine

[timastyle]

So I just got the book as a Christmas present and have been reading it for the last couple days. I just finished the backswing section and have some questions:

1. Does the weight distribution stay at 55/45 throughout the hole backswing? When I practice it in front of the mirror, it seems like there is more weight on my left side (I'm a righty).

2. It also says that the weight distribution for the longer irons and woods should be more to the front (60/40), with a greater hip slide. Wouldn't this create inconsistency in your swing in that you would need to alter your swing in order to compensate between irons?

Thanks!

[iacas]

1. Does the weight distribution stay at 55/45 throughout the hole backswing? When I practice it in front of the mirror, it seems like there is more weight on my left side (I'm a righty).

That's the feeling, yes. It's not quite the reality but the feeling is that the weight pretty much stays there, yes.

2. It also says that the weight distribution for the longer irons and woods should be more to the front (60/40), with a greater hip slide. Wouldn't this create inconsistency in your swing in that you would need to alter your swing in order to compensate between irons?

Not really, no. The ball is further forward, so if you look at that way, you're maintaining consistency.

This thread's about the book, too, so look up the thread "The Stack and Tilt Pattern" if you start to adopt it and want to get more in-depth conversation about the swing. This thread's more about reviews of the book.

[Leftygolfer]

Just started reading. I got it yesterday in the mail and read through page 100. I really like the concepts and the fundementals. I have found it sometimes difficult to understand everything he says and I had to go back and re-read. To me one of the biggest advantages it doesn't make you depend on being super flexable and you can still mantain your inclination to the ground. This is a big problem (stand up to help aid the turn) I have and I am sure have caused my consistant toe misses with my irons. If I can hit the ground in the same place I will become instantly more consistant. I am excited. D##n you erik. You are right. It is a simplier way to hit it solid (from what I have read and thinking of the times when I played well the feelings I had) I have gone through periods where I really played good golf but it has always be so cyclical. My timing would get off then I go search for answers and get worse. Come on spring. I really want an answer so I can play decent all the time and great part of the time (I think 75-76 is playing really good golf and have only had two rounds that low).

I think this concept was made for someone of my skill level.

Sorry about the swing ideas (I know there is another post). Anyway, I recommend the book and it has me excited about playing this year. This is the best golf book I have read since Dave Pelz short game bible.

[david_wedzik]

To me one of the biggest advantages it doesn't make you depend on being super flexable and you can still mantain your inclination to the ground.

Lefty - the book is VERY important in this regard - it explains how, during the backswing, the golfer changes from bent over (flexion) to standing up (extension) by releasing the address bend from the hips (then reverses all this on the downswing). Understanding this is HUGE as you now know how to turn properly, without some sort of extreme flexibility, and maintain your same inclination to the ground. Glad this was something you noted and took the time to point out.

As far as the concept being for someone of your skill level goes...I would say that understanding these concepts are musts for golfers of every skill level! Dave

[cyclistgolfer]

Got the book and read it and re-read it then re-read the important parts again. Everytime I went through it the more I realize that those times I'm hitting it well I am doing something right out of the book.

I have adopted the swing and have been a little more consistent ever since. Still have some bad days and bad holes but this book gives me exactly what I have been looking for since I started playing in '05, something to go back to when things go wrong.

Overall I would recomend this book to anybody in all skill levels, you just have to be open minded and be true to yourself and be commited.

I also purchased the video but that's probably for another thread

[keb]

Have been thinking of getting this book, but not sure I want to do a wholesale "conversion" to the stack and tilt. Is that necessary in order to learn something from the book?