Stack and Tilters

[divottool]

It looks like a bunch of the stack and tilt guys failed to advance through to the Q School finals.

I quess they will be stack and tilting on the Nationwide Tour!

[pingman]

haha, didn't get to catch that, but that's a good observation.....i'm not a fan of the stack and tilt

[david_wedzik]

It looks like a bunch of the stack and tilt guys failed to advance through to the Q School finals.

Yeah - this is a really well thought out point - a couple guys (who are past winners on the PGA Tour by the way) will be playing the Nationwide Tour this next year and another 15 or so SnT guys will be playing the PGA Tour. This is quite certainly a damning testament to Stack and Tilt. And this certainly proves beyond a doubt that Stack and Tilt has no merit. If you are among some of the greatest players in the world and practice the principles it can only take you as far as the Nationwide Tour or PGA Tour. This is not meant to be an argument - I just really wish when these kinds of topics were started they would have all the facts in place.

Dave

[divottool]

Yeah - this is a really well thought out point - a couple guys (who are past winners on the PGA Tour by the way) will be playing the Nationwide Tour this next year and another 15 or so SnT guys will be playing the PGA Tour. This is quite certainly a damning testament to Stack and Tilt. And this certainly proves beyond a doubt that Stack and Tilt has no merit. If you are among some of the greatest players in the world and practice the principles it can only take you as far as the Nationwide Tour or PGA Tour. This is not meant to be an argument - I just really wish when these kinds of topics were started they would have all the facts in place.

I guess that I would not expect anything less from the Golf Evolution. It was just an observation that some key (or should I say) pioneer students of the stack and tilt concept did not make the finals in Q School. It seems that Golf Digest and Golf Magazine made the same observation, but since I don't have as low as handicap as you my statement must not matter.

It seems to me that a few of the moderators of this forum have become very sensitive to the opinions of others that do not adhere to the S&T; principles......maybe you should change the name of the forum to reflect your beliefs!!

[Bo the Golfer]

I just recently went over to the stack and tilt and so far so good. As far as this thread is concerned it does seem as the S&T; brings out fervency on both sides of the ailse. I don't see threads that say "David Leadbetter followers fail to advance at Q school" so not sure why we see threads for S&T.; To each their own though so if bashing a swing method does it for you then by all means go for it but I would be prepared to get called on it from those on the other side of the argument.

[PiustheDrGolf]

It's not the swing method. Various types of swings are winning every week. I don't care what it is. I just care what it works on me or not.

[Leftygolfer]

I do see alot of people on this forum advacating s&t.; It seems that if a quality player has a motion that is similar to S&t; then that is how they swing. All good swings have alot in common. I don't see it as being the revolutionary swing method. Good swings are very similar through the impact. I just don't see much difference. A quality action is a quality action. Simple is good and being repeatable is all this game is about.

[david_wedzik]

I guess that I would not expect anything less from the Golf Evolution. It was just an observation that some key (or should I say) pioneer students of the stack and tilt concept did not make the finals in Q School. It seems that Golf Digest and Golf Magazine made the same observation, but since I don't have as low as handicap as you my statement must not matter.

Sorry for any miscommunication here and the last thing I'm looking for is a battle. I actually made the statement that this was not meant to be an argument for that very reason...and it was not. My point was only, as I said, that I think it would be best if these type of posts listed all the facts which is what I did in my follow up. Your post was pretty clearly more than an "observation"...it was a shot at stack and tilt (exclamation point was the give away) and honestly I am OK with that. However, I felt I had a right to list the rest of the facts regarding SnT players on Tour.

BTW - your handicap and mine have no bearing here and I am NOT a moderator of this forum. Just someone who, like you, posts from time to time. Dave

[sacm3bill]

I guess that I would not expect anything less from the Golf Evolution. It was just an observation that some key (or should I say) pioneer students of the stack and tilt concept did not make the finals in Q School.

Roughly 420 entrants competed in this stage. Roughly 120 advanced. I'd say that probably means a bunch of *non* S&Ters; failed to advance as well. Either you don't understand that, or hoped that no one else would.

The only possible way your statement would be meaningful would be if it was refuting a S&T; proponent had at any point had said, "Using S&T; guarantees you a spot on the PGA tour". I have no dog in the S&T; hunt, I just feel compelled to point out ridiculous statements when I see them.

It seems that Golf Digest and Golf Magazine made the same observation...

Not doubting you, but is it online somewhere where we can verify it? Are you sure you weren't reading some reader comment?

[iacas]

It seems to me that a few of the moderators of this forum have become very sensitive to the opinions of others that do not adhere to the S&T; principles......maybe you should change the name of the forum to reflect your beliefs!!

I take exception to that... Or at least I think a few facts are in order.

1) Dave's my instructor. He's not a moderator, and so far as I know, I'm the only moderator or admin who is trying to employ a Stack and Tilt swing in his own personal swing. 2) I think everyone would benefit from looking at the Stack and Tilt book, but that's much the same way as I believe everyone would benefit from looking at other swings as well. Gather as much information as you can, learn, and choose what you think is best. In the end, I really don't care how you swing a golf club - I just try to help. 3) I don't like it when people take pot shots from afar or bash something - regardless of what it is. Your post seemed to be in this zip code if not this neighborhood. Original post lacks substance, basically. 4) I've learned a lot about S&T; recently and it's given a certain "flavor" to my opinions on how the golf swing works, but as I just said in another forum entirely, S&T; is, at its core, a classification of the moves the best players have made. It's not a fundamentally new or radical type of swing - it boils down the true essentials. So you can apply a "piece" of the S&T; swing to any swing method and like be better off. 5) I think it's easy to target S&T; because it has a name. David Leadbetter also teaches a certain method but we don't pick on that because he didn't call it the "Sway and Lift" or something. 6) In the end, I'm just a forum user like you. I may be on here more than some people (but I'm on less than some others - I can tell you that too!). I don't care about equipment like some others, but I do care about swing theory - always have - so the majority of my posts are in that area. You can disagree with me all you like - without disagreement there'd be little need for a forum.

I don't see threads that say "David Leadbetter followers fail to advance at Q school" so not sure why we see threads for S&T.;

Right. Divottool, if you're going to attack something, you have to expect people might respond a little defensively. This thread's an attack, and an unbalanced one at that.

What if I were to start a thread claiming that 90% of the Stack and Tilt guys have full status on the PGA Tour next year, while only 22% of "non-Stack and Tilt" guys have the same status... after all, weren't about 2000 others who failed to qualify also not Stack and Tilt people? I could make that point, but frankly, that'd be dumb, so I don't.

It's not the swing method. Various types of swings are winning every week.

Additionally, the PGA Tour is still largely a putting contest. Expand it a bit and it's a short game contest. Stack and Tilt doesn't do much for a guy's putting or short game...

[iacas]

I do see alot of people on this forum advacating s&t.; It seems that if a quality player has a motion that is similar to S&t; then that is how they swing. All good swings have alot in common. I don't see it as being the revolutionary swing method. Good swings are very similar through the impact. I just don't see much difference. A quality action is a quality action. Simple is good and being repeatable is all this game is about.

Spot on. I've said it a few times: S&T; isn't a new radical swing, it's simply a classification and simplification of the moves most common to the best golfers.

[divottool]

I take exception to that... Or at least I think a few facts are in order.

The only reason that you take exception with any statement about stack and tilt is because you are into it now. There was a time, it seems, that you weren't into it, and if any person was to read your past statements about the subject they would get a completely different view than you have right now.

I don't give a rats ass what kind of swing you are into. I just can't believe how upset you are getting over this subject. We can debate forever different swing philosophies, and tournament wins against Major Tournament winners until hell freezes over. It will not change the fact that this new fad has yet to produce any significant amount of wins, per percentage playing it, than any other type of golf swing. Go back to my original post and re-read it. It was a statement made after reading a article today on Golf Magazine on-line. They made the same statement! They did not try to debate the fact that other pros from different swing gurus also did not make the final stage in Q School. Maybe you should contact Plummer and have him contact Golf Magazine and ask for a rebuttal!! I don't know about others that read, or are members of this forum, but I have seen several occasions on this forum where you call people out for not agreeing with you to some existent, and that is totally wrong. I hope that I never leave anyone with the impression that I even remotely know everything there is about the golf swing, but I know one thing. YOU ARE AN As*Hole!!!

[lobsterzilla]

are you 5 ?

[iacas]

Edit: I should have read to the end before even bothering to respond. Y'know, read to the part where he curses and swears and stuff. As it happened, I started to respond piecemeal and didn't even see the cursing until I was almost done... Suffice to say divottool is a hater, plain and simple, and is getting a chance to cool off in the penalty box. Not for disagreeing - I hadn't so much as given him a negative reputation comment before - but for the cursing and name-calling.

Anyway, my original response here. You'll probably figure out the part at which I had seen he swore.

The only reason that you take exception with any statement about stack and tilt is because you are into it now.

So it can't possibly be that I take exception to it because you made grossly inaccurate or misleading statements not only about a group of professional golfers, but also how we conduct the forum here and who is or isn't even a moderator? It can't possibly be because your facts are wrong, could it?

There was a time, it seems, that you weren't into it, and if any person was to read your past statements about the subject they would get a completely different view than you have right now.

Opinions change. I was convinced and "won over" by the facts of the matter. What do you want?

Why so hostile?

I don't give a rats ass what kind of swing you are into. I just can't believe how upset you are getting over this subject.

The only person who seems to be upset right now is you... You started a lame "ha ha" thread that was misleading at best, and are now swearing and being belligerent.

If you don't care, why post?

We can debate forever different swing philosophies, and tournament wins against Major Tournament winners until hell freezes over. It will not change the fact that this new fad has yet to produce any significant amount of wins, per percentage playing it, than any other type of golf swing.

Another poor fact... If "Stack and Tilt" is "versus traditional golf swings" then Stack and Tilt players probably win a much higher percentage of the time than the traditional golfers. After all, S&Ters; are outnumbered something like 300 to 1, yet they win more than 1/300th of the time.

Furthermore, you can't draw conclusions based on these kinds of things. Most of the guys currently being taught by Mike and Andy have improved - some significantly - in their world ranking, wins, etc. It's not like Phil Mickelson or some other guy took up S&T; and suddenly dropped like a rock and now isn't even qualified as a full member of the PGA Tour. The simple fact that you persist in calling it a "fad" and the other bits of language and tone you've used here along with misleading or mis-stated facts make obvious your stance on the issue. Yet again you don't care... So why post?

Go back to my original post and re-read it. It was a statement made after reading a article today on Golf Magazine on-line.

You were already asked to give a link. The only one I could find is this one, and the only place "stack" appears is in a comment left by someone else:

http://blogs.golf.com/presstent/2009...ol-finals.html

They made the same statement! They did not try to debate the fact that other pros from different swing gurus also did not make the final stage in Q School. Maybe you should contact Plummer and have him contact Golf Magazine and ask for a rebuttal!!

And now I've seen where you're going with all of this, and suffice to say, you're a hater who needs to grow up or something, because apparently you believe you're allowed to say whatever you want, and when people respond, you swear at them. Get real.

I don't know about others that read, or are members of this forum, but I have seen several occasions on this forum where you call people out for not agreeing with you to some existent, and that is totally wrong.

You don't seem to appreciate or understand the difference between facts and opinions.

I hope that I never leave anyone with the impression that I even remotely know everything there is about the golf swing, but I know one thing.

And you are in the penalty box. Wow, over-react much?

[david_wedzik]

Sorry for any miscommunication here and the last thing I'm looking for is a battle. I actually made the statement that this was not meant to be an argument for that very reason...and it was not.

So it seems that the whole "sorry for any miscommunication...not meant to be an argument" thing didn't go over real well...sorry for the trouble...was actually trying to be civil. It does make for good ratings though!

Dave

[lobsterzilla]

haha always good fun when people get upset over the internet...

[iacas]

haha always good fun when people get upset over the internet...

And, undoubtedly, the fella probably thinks he's in the penalty box (a temporary thing until he can cool down) because he "disagreed with me."

He'll likely completely miss the fact that he cursed and called me names, and that is why he's in the penalty box. In the end, guys, whether you like Stack and Tilt or not, whether you agree with me or not, it's just golf. It's just a game... there's certainly no need to scream or curse at people.

[wedge player]

if your in the penalty box can you still view the forum?