Christians

[Uber$winG]

Ah yes… the polemics of religion.

Below is the documentary Zeitgeist (for those of you who are familiar with this work, the first 30 minutes serve to shed some light on our little discussion… the remainder of the film is a whole other animal).

Enjoy…

[Brugz7]

As Christians, we believe that the Gospel is true. The Gospel tells us that those who do not believe will not be in Heaven.

The Bible tells us that we will be persecuted for our beliefs, just as they persecuted Jesus.. but the Bible also tells us to rejoice in this because that much greater will our reward be in Heaven.

The reason I feel it is necessary to share my beliefs with others is because it is my job as a Christian. Matthew 28:19-20 is very clear on what we as Christ-followers are supposed to do.

“If you believe there is a heaven and hell, and you think it’s not worth telling someone about it, how much do you have to hate him to not proselytize? To believe that everlasting life is possible and not tell people? This man cared enough about me to proselytize.” -- Self-proclaimed atheist Penn Fraser Jillette

[nike_golf]

As Christians, we believe that the Gospel is true. The Gospel tells us that those who do not believe will not be in Heaven.

Awesome stuff.

[jots]

Awesome stuff.

Awesome indeed!

[Cussin hacker]

So what you are saying is that basicly the mostly white, mostly western believers will not burn in hell. The several billion other people in the world will burn because they do not believe in your faith!! There is no logic in that at all to me. I'm glad it makes you feel good, but for me, I can do without that kind of thought.

[kfowler]

Just wanted to point out a great web site for those who are interested. It's called Got Questions.org . This will answer many of the questions I've seen posted here. The answers are Biblically based so you'll have to have some confidence in the Bible to accept them. Even if you believe the Bible is totally fiction, it'll give you some background as to why your Christian friends believe what they believe.

[jots]

So what you are saying is that basicly the mostly white, mostly western believers will not burn in hell. The several billion other people in the world will burn because they do not believe in your faith!! There is no logic in that at all to me. I'm glad it makes you feel good, but for me, I can do without that kind of thought.

Why are you limiting it to "mostly white, western believers"?

I'm sure you've heard of John 3:16, "for God so loved the world ..." Every person on Earth has the opportunity to accept Christ. If you have a problem with my faith then that's your choice. It's not our faith but the object of our faith. My faith is in Jesus Christ, the one "who loved me and gave himself for me". I put my complete trust in Him and that His word is truth. And according to Acts 4:12, "there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." You can put me in the camp that everyone on Earth that doesn't put their faith and trust in Christ as Lord of all will be subject to eternity in Hell. It really comes down to the age old question doesn't it? Jesus asked, "who do men say that I am"? If you believe in Him and trust Him for salvation then you also accept His Word, and He speaks very clearly that Jesus is the only way to salvation. I believe God's own testimony on salvation to be true: "And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:11,12 So what it comes down to is, you don't have a problem with our faith. You have a problem agreeing with God. You choose to deny Christ, we choose to accept Him. That's called free will.

[Cussin hacker]

The Christian faith is made up of mostly white westerners was my point. I don't have a problem with your faith at all. I just do not understand the whole idea of organized religions in general. Most all of them believe if you don't believe as they do your condemed. Just have trouble wrapping my head around that idea. I'm not knocking anyone for how you chose to believe. This is a free country. I'm just interested in the discussion of it all.

[jots]

The Christian faith is made up of mostly white westerners was my point. I don't have a problem with your faith at all. I just do not understand the whole idea of organized religions in general. Most all of them believe if you don't believe as they do your condemed. Just have trouble wrapping my head around that idea. I'm not knocking anyone for how you chose to believe. This is a free country. I'm just interested in the discussion of it all.

Well I agree wholeheartedly with you about organized religion. It's not religion that saves us, it's Christ and Christ alone that I put my faith in. Being a Baptist doesn't save me, being a Catholic doesn't save me, neither does Church of Christ, Mormon, or any other denomination or sect.

The legalism in a lot of churches today make me want to puke! Makes me wonder if they have ever even opened up the New Testament, "we are no longer under law, but grace." In my opinion, since we are living in the New Covenant, then pastors should teach the majority of time out of the NT. But organized religion says no, we have to keep the congregation under control so we will just keep them under the bondage of legalism, tradition, and whatever else they can browbeat you with. That's partly what I believe organised religion does. They are so steeped in tradition and legalism that they have lost all sence of truth. Then you have the Muslim extremist that teach that all Christians should be killed for not believing in Allah. I think I have gone off in my own little world since I am watching the olympics and talking to wife at same time as writing this so sorry if it didn't make any sence at all.

[Cussin hacker]

Watching the Olympics myself. Well we do agree on one thing anyway.... Organized religion is a messed up way to go.

[Brugz7]

Cussin hacker, in the Bible it says this.. "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it." -- Matthew 7:13-14. I read your response and wanted to give you this verse because it answers why billions of people will not be in Heaven. These are not my words, but the Word of God.

That verse is my passion for witnessing to others about Jesus Christ. It is free will that enables people to choose to believe or not. I believe God's Word. I believe that when He says only a few ever find it, He literally means a few ever find it. Since I believe this, I want to share this with as many people as I can.. it is their choice to accept or reject it.

I saw that you are a cancer survivor and just want to let you know how thankful I am for that. That is truly a blessing!

[Phil McGleno]

I saw that you are a cancer survivor and just want to let you know how thankful I am for that. That is truly a blessing!

Thank god for Science!

Who cares what the Bible says? It's a book written by humans. Where's the part about the dinosaurs or how "the image" of man has changed through time? Goodness, people, it's just a book. It's not proof of anything, or else the tortoise really did race the hare (and win), and a little girl really did fall in a hole and come upon a mad hatter and a disappearing cat, among other things.

[Brugz7]

I care what the Bible says, and so do all other Christians. Yes, the Bible was written by humans, but God spoke through those humans and used them to write it for Him. The Bible says in the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word is Jesus Christ.

That wasn't intended for you to criticize my beliefs. It was written from one person to another out of kindness and admiration. That is a BIG deal and I don't appreciate the fact that you are trying to use what I said to justify your beliefs towards myself and other Christians.

[jots]

Thank god for Science!

Thank god for Science!

There are plenty of things written in the Word of God and later discovered scientifically that proves undoubtedly that God is the author. Christian scientist such as Galileo understood this, so did Kepler, Descartes, von Leibnitz, Newton, Pascal, and more.

Who cares what the Bible says? It's a book written by humans.

2 Timothy 3:16a "all scripture is given by inspiration of God." Therefore I believe God wrote every single word of it.

There is so much scripture that proves the authenticity of the Bible as the Word of God that it astoundes me how any sane person could reject it. You won't find one single mistake in God's word. What you will find is science, hydrology, astronomy, geology, meteorology, and physiology. You will find all kinds of scriptrue revealling these, hundreds even thousands of years before science ever came along. I could add biology, archaeology, anthropology, and other sciences, and still find that every time the Bible touches on these things it is absolutely accurate. My favorite proof of Scripture is prophecy. Prophecies that have come to pass years after they were uttered. Their amazing accuracy leaves us with but one conclussion, they were authored by God. Just a book? You don't have a clue

[nike_golf]

Thank god for Science!

You should thank God for everything, not just science.

One of my favorite sayings. "Science only goes so far, then comes God."

[jots]

Thank god for Science!

Where's the part about the dinosaurs

Job 40 and 41. If dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years, how could a writer of the Bible have accurately described the appearance, food, and habitat of this creature?

[zeg]

There are plenty of things written in the Word of God and later discovered scientifically that proves undoubtedly that God is the author. Christian scientist such as Galileo understood this, so did Kepler, Descartes, von Leibnitz, Newton, Pascal, and more.

My problem with this is that, if you assume the Bible is true, it tells you that it's true. There's a word for this: Circular logic. If you don't already accept what the Bible says, then it's really got nothing convincing in there. Think about it: if you don't already believe everything in it to be true, why would you be swayed that it says it's true? Why aren't you swayed that the Book of Mormon also tells you that it's true?

Also, as to the "absolute accuracy" and not finding "a single mistake" (etc), I don't know what to say, that's just not true. At best it has vague stories that can be given meaning by creative interpretation to accommodate almost anything you like. That's not very convincing, again, unless you are convinced by circular logic. And I wouldn't think you'd want to bring Galileo into a discussion of Christianity being right about science.

[zeg]

"Science only goes so far, then comes God."

That's fine with me, and if you accept God as being a label for the things that we don't (or can't) understand, I actually agree. Our ability to observe the world has limits, some simply due to our limited understanding of where or how to look, and perhaps some fundamental.

However, letting preceonceptions of how things must be get in the way of objectively studying the world is a recipe for disaster. Thus, as I said above, there's no problem with believing in God and doing science. The problems come in when you refuse to accept observations or models simply because they disagree with a mythology. If you're only going to believe results that tell you what you want, that's not really honest science.

Job 40 and 41. If dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years, how could a writer of the Bible have accurately described the appearance, food, and habitat of this creature?

Um, didn't you just get through explaining how it's God speaking through humans? If the authors can describe the paradise that is heaven, the torment that is hell, and the origins of creation, I don't think you can just weasel out of questions of prehistory so easily.