OB when walking

[sacm3bill]

I'd believed this also, but on re-reading, since 4-2 does specifically deal with holes not played by the Rules of Golf and equates it to an unplayed hole, I think perhaps it's all or nothing for a hole played by the Rules. This seems a bit odd to me, but I don't see any other way to read the section. Any thoughts?

Wow, interesting point Zeg. According to that section a hole played other than under the rules of golf must be recorded as "par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole." But if you follow that to the letter, and consider a hole where you drop on an OB as a hole not played by the rules, giving yourself a par plus handicap strokes is basically disregarding the fact you just hit one OB.

So that's a bit of a conundrum. Personally I think the resolution is this: Once you drop on an OB instead of going back to the tee, you are failing to complete the hole under the rules of golf. You could simply walk to the next tee and give yourself the "most likely score" you would've gotten, which would be par plus handicap strokes plus 2 (if you had gone back to the tee, you would've been hitting 3). I think that would be completely within the handicapping guidelines. But instead, you decide to drop and see how many strokes it would've taken to hole out *if* you had actually hit a second tee shot to the point where you took the drop. Note the intent here is not to use the strokes as an actual score under the rules of golf, but to get a more accurate estimation of what you *would've* shot than if you had just given yourself par + handicap strokes + the stroke and distance 2. I.e., I'm basically rationalizing the playing out of the hole as a method of more accurately determining the strokes you should add to an "unfinished hole", as opposed to getting an actual score under the rules of golf. Thoughts/comments?

[The Recreational Golfer]

I would like to hear what a UGSA rules official would have to say about this thread.

BTW, I am not confusing a casual round with a competitive round. For me there is no difference. If you think you went OB, hit a provisional ball! What's so hard about that?

[alf174]

Wow, interesting point Zeg. According to that section a hole played other than under the rules of golf must be recorded as "par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole." But if you follow that to the letter, and consider a hole where you drop on an OB as a hole not played by the rules, giving yourself a par plus handicap strokes is basically disregarding the fact you just hit one OB.

Might as well - it would have a null effect on your handicap after posting.

I would like to hear what a UGSA rules official would have to say about this thread.

Me too.

BTW, I am not confusing a casual round with a competitive round. For me there is no difference. If you think you went OB, hit a provisional ball! What's so hard about that?

I don't differentiate between a casual round & a competitive round either. But if I did, I wouldn't even bother keeping score for the casual, just hit it like I was at the driving range & chase it.

[The Recreational Golfer]

Here's a scenario. My course handicap on my home course is 11. So I decide I'm going to skip the seven holes that I don't get a stroke on, and write down par according to rule 4-2. I play the eleven remaining holes and get five pars and six bogeys and turn in a neat 78.

Not suggesting that I (or anyone) would do this, but it seems to be consistent with the interpretation of handicap rule 4-2 that is being offered.

[ChipShot]

If its just a casual round I would have done the same thing you did. If its for money get ta steppin.

We were having this discussion in another topic. There are some people who insist you go back to the tee which is the rule but in the course of a casual round just drop a ball and step up to hit shot number four. I can't see many people who insist on following the rule in a casual round actually walking back to the tee especially if there is a group on it. But you do get some bluffers.

I agree with these two. No reason to walk all the way back to the tee just to hold everyone up behind you (assuming there is a group behind you) if its a casual round.

[sacm3bill]

BTW, I am not confusing a casual round with a competitive round. For me there is no difference. If you think you went OB, hit a provisional ball! What's so hard about that?

Obviously, hitting a provisional should always be done if there is any doubt about the ball being OB or about the ability to find it. No one is arguing that. This thread is about what to do if you *haven't* hit a provisional, for whatever reason.

Might as well [take the par plus handicap strokes instead of continuing to play after an OB]- it would have a null effect on your handicap after posting.

How do you figure that? Are you saying your scorecard would reflect the same score either way? The only way that would be the case would be if you went back to the tee, rehit, and played the hole at 2 strokes under your handicap. That's not going to happen very often.

I don't differentiate between a casual round & a competitive round either. But if I did, I wouldn't even bother keeping score for the casual, just hit it like I was at the driving range & chase it.

In the context of this thread, we're referring to a casual round as one that is not a competition. It's still being scored for handicap purposes.

Here's a scenario. My course handicap on my home course is 11. So I decide I'm going to skip the seven holes that I don't get a stroke on, and write down par according to rule 4-2. I play the eleven remaining holes and get five pars and six bogeys and turn in a neat 78.Not suggesting that I (or anyone) would do this, but it seems to be consistent with the interpretation of handicap rule 4-2 that is being offered.

Well first, I'm not sure what you think you're gaining by doing that. Second, that would be against the rule that states you must play 13 holes to post a score. Third, note that 4-1 states: "There is no limit to the number of unfinished [not unplayed] holes a player may have in a round,

provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation ."

[sacm3bill]

Something to note:

4-2: Note: A score must not be posted if the majority of the holes are not played under the principles of "The Rules of Golf."

5-1.d: Scores must be made in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf. (See Decisions 5-1d/1 and 5-1d/2.)

Note the use in both cases of the phrase " principles of the Rules of Golf". While not in accordance with the rules, I would say dropping and adding 2 for an OB is well within the principles of the rules.

Again, I strongly condone the hitting of a provisional, which would avoid the need to talk about what happens if you don't.

[Fourputt]

I'd believed this also, but on re-reading, since 4-2 does specifically deal with holes not played by the Rules of Golf and equates it to an unplayed hole, I think perhaps it's all or nothing for a hole played by the Rules. This seems a bit odd to me, but I don't see any other way to read the section. Any thoughts?

While the book may read that way, if I've aready taken enough strokes following the rules to reach my ESC max, then anything I do thereafter is irrelevant as far as returning a score for handicap. It is rarely an issue for me, as I almost always play a provisional ball if there is a chance that I may not find the ball in play, but in the case that I don't, I'll just take the ESC max and move on.

[The Recreational Golfer]

I guess I'll get more to the point. If when playing a causal round, you decide to break a rule, regardless of the purpose, where do you draw the line? Which rules can you decide you're not going to follow? One of the "principles of the rules of golf" is that you can't decide to hold a rule in abeyance, which is codified in playing rule 1.

It seems contributors on the opposite side of the issue from myself are holding the handicap rules in higher regard than the playing rules. If we have to follow HRule 4-1 regarding handicap manipulation, I would ask, why? We're already deciding not to follow other rules, so why follow this one? The line of handicap manipulation is not a fine one. I would imagine that in a casual round we give each other little putts, even though that's against the rules. At some point, that would become handicap manipulation, but at what point? Outside the leather? Three feet? Four? At what distance does this become unintentional, yet de facto handicap manipulation?

Once you start breaking rules, it gets muddy pretty fast. Just follow them. It's not that hard to do.

[alf174]

Once you start breaking rules, it gets muddy pretty fast. Just follow them. It's not that hard to do.

Exactly, +1.

[sacm3bill]

I guess I'll get more to the point. If when playing a causal round, you decide to break a rule, regardless of the purpose, where do you draw the line? Which rules can you decide you're not going to follow? One of the "principles of the rules of golf" is that you can't decide to hold a rule in abeyance, which is codified in playing rule 1.

Ok, I think I see what you're saying. I guess I just don't agree with your slippery slope argument. The guidelines are pretty clear about how to post scores for handicapping when a hole is not played out. Specifically, one of them is you should take the number of strokes that you expect to hole out in more than 50% of the time. Let's take your example of being conceded a putt. Would you have made that putt more than 50% of the time? If it truly was a gimme, then of course you would, so you take the one stroke. Otherwise take 2. Heck, take 3 if you're having a bad putting day. Yes, it's a judgement call but it is perfectly within the absolute letter of the law when it comes to handicapping purposes. There is no manipulation going on.

It is OTOH completely illegal to be conceded a putt in competition stroke play. I'm not putting handicap rules in higher regard than actual rules. But the handicap rules are specifically designed for situations such as we're discussing where for whatever reason (failed to hit a provisional, gimme putts, unfinished hole due to an emergency at home, pace of play), the Rules of Golf were not followed to the letter but you still want to keep an accurate handicap. If someone wants to manipulate their handicap, there are much easier ways than purposely misusing or misinterpreting the handicap guidelines. The guidelines are there for people who want to play by the handicap rules.

[ChipShot]

I guess I'll get more to the point. If when playing a causal round, you decide to break a rule, regardless of the purpose, where do you draw the line? Which rules can you decide you're not going to follow? One of the "principles of the rules of golf" is that you can't decide to hold a rule in abeyance, which is codified in playing rule 1.

I'm just curious if you ever speed while driving your car, because those posted speed limit signs are rules as well.....

[zeg]

This is really getting out of hand, guys. Remember the topic of the thread? It was "OB when walking" and the point was to ask what to do when you realize after hiking down the fairway that your ball is OB. This specific rule now puts you in a position that may add close to ten minutes to the hole as you walk a couple minutes back to the tee, hit your shot, and walk back, perhaps with a few extra minutes working your way in with the group behind, etc. That is why THIS PARTICULAR rule more often than any other is frequently broken. There's no slippery slope here that will let you pick and choose your rules, it's a question of whether the Rules of Golf trump all other considerations, or perhaps in some situations some folks might have other priorities for their game.

Rec Golfer said something about putting the handicapping guidelines over the Rules. Maybe so, but that's not really a problem, they deal with different issues. Part of the point is that while the Rules are the Rules, sometimes you'll break one. Sometimes it'll be something conscious like this. More often (for me, anyway) it's because of a mistake. Maybe you play out a hole with the wrong ball and don't notice until after you've teed off, or whatever. In a tournament, that's DQ. In either case, you've got to report the score to protect your handicap. That is to protect the competition when you next use it. So yeah, in a casual round, I think the handicapping regs ARE more important than the Rules, since they actually impact the competition next time you're out.

And what sac3m said about handicap manipulation is exactly right. Of course you are not allowed to exploit these rules for that purpose. There's nothing exploitative about this in any way. Think about it---if anything, these methods will almost surely give you a LOWER score to report than strictly playing by the rules from that point. For handicapping, that's fine, it'll make your handicap lower than it should be. If you want to be given fewer strokes in competition, that's fine. In fact, you're *always* allowed to take fewer strokes than you're entitled to, or even to report higher scores than you scored for purposes of the competition if it floats your boat.

Finally, re: Fourputt and sac3m's notes about what to do when you do play a hole out outside the Rules, I agree it makes more sense to estimate your score... I'm a bit surprised to see that it's either ambiguous or perhaps incorrect as written.

[Fourputt]

I guess I'll get more to the point. If when playing a causal round, you decide to break a rule, regardless of the purpose, where do you draw the line? Which rules can you decide you're not going to follow? One of the "principles of the rules of golf" is that you can't decide to hold a rule in abeyance, which is codified in playing rule 1.

I doubt that there is anyone on this site with a better fundamental understanding of the rules than I have. I follow the Rules of Golf doggedly when I play, even if I'm the only player on the golf course. That said, if my score has already reached its max for ESC, why shouldn't I just take that and call it good? I earned that score by my stellar play and I'm going to turn it in even if I was to pick up at that point and not finish. Normally I will still play all the way to the hole, and 99% of the time all the rest of the strokes will still be completely within the rules too. But that one time out of 100 isn't going to make Hell freeze over.

As a player who is totally anal about the Rules of Golf, I still don't see your point. What is the sense of doing something as silly as returning to the previous spot to hit my 8th shot and making the players behind me wait when that shot and any subsequent ones will not count anyway? It's like playing in a Stableford competition... once you reach a certain point, any further strokes won't change the outcome... you pick up and move on. I've been called a rules Nazi on this board in the past, but you have gone off the deep end without a life jacket. I play by the rules... I'm an active on course rules official with the CGA, but even I can see when something doesn't make any sense.

[CG031]

I've never wondered why people care so much about and for handicaps. Most of them are B.S. anyway.

Lets be honest, handicaps are whatever the f#$K you want them to be...I've always found (MOST, not all) peoples handicaps seem real low or real high. They either want to impress, or want to take peoples money.

That's why I've never cared for handicapped events or anything like that. Whenever my club has a handicapped tournament I never play because you have people out there who are 15's shooting 81, and you have 2 handicaps shooting 79.

[Fourputt]

I've never wondered why people care so much about and for handicaps. Most of them are B.S. anyway.

If it's such BS then why do you bother to post yours? Anyway you are full of it. There's nothing odd about a 15 shooting 81. I have a 79 on my GHIN score list right now and I'm a 14 (course handicap). And that 79 was NOT a tournament round, but it was still posted. I also have an 81 on the list, and that

was a competition round. But, since most of my scores are more like 85, 86 87, 88 and higher, my handicap is at that 14 (12.9 index) level. You can choose not to play in handicapped competitions because by the number you have posted you appear to be able to hold your own in gross tournaments. For most of us that just isn't true, so we rely on handicaps to give us the opportunity to compete on a more level playing field. You act as if it's some sort of crime to carry an average or higher handicap and to play erratically. We can't all be Supergolfer. Sorry to say but that is how the typical golfer plays... up one day and down the next, without a clue as to why. I've had competition rounds this year from 95 to 81. I didn't win anything with the 95 .... and the 81 was a match round... still half the season to go before I see if that got me anywhere. We who carry our honest but lowly mid handicaps get really tired of guys like you who bitch every time this subject comes up. You look down your nose at us when you have to play with us on the course, and then you rant about the unfairness of it all when you get beaten fair and square by a guy who more often than not carries an honest handicap, but you won't believe it because just can't deal with it. Give us all a break and let it rest. By the way.... even the pros shoot 79's (and worse).

[CarlSpackler]

Since I walk most of the time, I play a provisional religiously if I hit anywhere towards OB unless I know for sure that it is in. It is a easier and less embarrassing to go pick up a provisional than it is to go all the way back to the tee. In your scenario, I would have taken the walk back and let anyone behind me through.

[CG031]

If it's such BS then why do you bother to post yours? Anyway you are full of it. There's nothing odd about a 15 shooting 81. I have a 79 on my GHIN score list right now and I'm a 14 (course handicap). And that 79 was NOT a tournament round, but it was still posted. I also have an 81 on the list, and that

This is exactly why my post said I've found that MOST, not all. Most people I've found at my club have a really weird handicap. This one guy admitted to me he shot a real low round the other day, but wouldn't put it in because he didn't want his handicap to go lower! How lame is that?!

Probably MOST on this site their handicap is LEGIT. Why? Because we are all obssesed golfers. But out in the real world, I'd say about 60-70% of people's handicaps aren't accurate. Or at least more than half. That's what I've found anyway. And to me, I don't want any damn strokes. I want to play people straight up. I want to play a scratch golfer straight up. It's like telling LeBron, hey, LeBron, let's play 1 on 1, but you cut off one leg and give me 39 points and we'll play to 40. Maybe it's just my competitive spirit coming from other sports I've grown up playing. I've just found the entire handicap idea to be lame. And why do I even have a handicap? So I can play in official USGA tournaments and shit and a lot of places require you have a GHIN handicap. I could care less what mine is.