Another 59 and we are changing the grooves because.....?

[kafka01]

Their clubs come from the same factories that make our clubs.

So why does a lot of tour equipment has special markings? If you think you walk into Golfsmith and by the same quality in shaft & heads the guys on tour play, you are wrong. They not only have their stuff fitted and grinded to their exact specs, the also receive the most flawless products, and the rest they sell of retail. That doesnt mean you can´t buy a flawless product retail, but you also run the risk of buying junk!

Just to give you an example - i had a 3wood where the face ripped after 5 months, i had a driver where the back broke, i got a 3wood factory new, with a missing screw, a putter where the shaft broke inside the hosel (and i dont throw clubs or slam them in the ground) - all this stuff would have never made it on tour in the first place... Of course it all was covered under warrenty, but i stilled played with a flawed product all the time. And that was just the obvious stuff - it doesnt matter much to us, cuz our swings are too inconsistent, but still, if i shell out 400 € for a driver, i should be entitled to a quality product and not some marketing BS

The reason we have seen two rounds of 59 and a slew of 60 to 62 rounds is because they are setting up the courses to play easier.

Very true, but still kind of sad, you should challenge the best not give them a free lunch...

[rebby]

Just to give you an example - i had a 3wood where the face ripped after 5 months, i had a driver where the back broke, i got a 3wood factory new, with a missing screw, a putter where the shaft broke inside the hosel (and i dont throw clubs or slam them in the ground) - all this stuff would have never made it on tour in the first place... Of course it all was covered under warrenty, but i stilled played with a flawed product all the time. And that was just the obvious stuff - it doesnt matter much to us, cuz our swings are too inconsistent, but still, if i shell out 400 € for a driver, i should be entitled to a quality product and not some marketing BS

And Phil Mickelson's driver broke right before the Masters... Your point?

Stuff breaks all the time. Not just in your bag or my bag but the bag's of Tour Pros as well. Sure, a lot of clubs used on tour are different than what you can buy in Golf Galaxy. That doesn't mean that it's any better or worse suited to play a round of golf with. If you want premium equipment, it's out there, get out your checkbook and go buy some. As for the grooves, how many of you have actually switched to conforming grooves? I'd bet it's not many.

[Fourputt]

I wish but then the USGA would have to admit they were wrong.

I am fine with the constistency between pros and ams but if a rule meant to effect the pros ends up only effecting the amateurs, why keep it.

Where do you see it affecting amateurs? You have zero evidence to support your contention. All you have is a paranoid fear of the unknown.

I've been using irons with the new grooves for most of 2 seasons now, and I can tell you from actual play that my handicap took a brief spike while I was getting used to the differences, but that might even be just because the clubs themselves had a different feel and different playability. This weekend I even backed up a Bridgestone E6 some 5 feet (9I - 135 yards), and I rarely did that even with my old square grooves. I'm even planning on replacing my wedges with the new version so that I have consistency throughout the bag. If I can make that adjustment without any major problems, don't you think that a PGA Pro can do the same????? All of this crying and hand wringing is just so much wasted energy. Your time is better spent on making a few minor adjustments to your game to incorporate the new clubs.

[Valleygolfer]

Where do you see it affecting amateurs? You have zero evidence to support your contention. All you have is a paranoid fear of the unknown.

Paranoid? Some of us do not have as much time on the course as others to train on new clubs. I am just pointing out that this rule to remedy a pro problem turned into an issue for others. Plus look at all the posts. People feel strongly about it. I am not really wasting much energy either. I will play the clubs I have until they are tired or I want others. I may still buy another wedge this year anyway because I have been hitting my current one a lot.

Why is it pissing you off so bad, this doesn't bother me as much as it sounds like it bothers you.

[shades9323]

Paranoid? Some of us do not have as much time on the course as others to train on new clubs. I am just pointing out that this rule to remedy a pro problem turned into an issue for others. Plus look at all the posts. People feel strongly about it. I am not really wasting much energy either. I will play the clubs I have until they are tired or I want others. I may still buy another wedge this year anyway because I have been hitting my current one a lot.

Most amatures couldn't tell the difference anyway.

[Valleygolfer]

Most amatures couldn't tell the difference anyway.

Can you tell?

[shades9323]

Can you tell?

I haven't hit any clubs with v grooves, but I highly doubt it.

edit* I actually have hit clubs that conform to the new groove rule(macgregor mt pro cm satin). I couldn't tell a difference.

[Fourputt]

Paranoid? Some of us do not have as much time on the course as others to train on new clubs. I am just pointing out that this rule to remedy a pro problem turned into an issue for others. Plus look at all the posts. People feel strongly about it. I am not really wasting much energy either. I will play the clubs I have until they are tired or I want others. I may still buy another wedge this year anyway because I have been hitting my current one a lot.

Why is it bothering YOU so much? You and one other here seem to be making the most noise against the new (although not so new any more) grooves. Have YOU tried anything with the new grooves, enough to feel like you are making your typical swing? It doesn't sound like it. And if you don't spend that much time at the course then you probably aren't a good enough player to tell the difference anyway. I can't really tell the difference (and I've played 10 rounds in the last 12 days), nor can anyone else I've ever talked to on the course. All I know is that I like my AP-2's better than I did my old Cobras, but that probably has nothing to do with the grooves... I just prefer the style more. I bought my Vokey wedges before the new ones were available, so I don't know if that will be significant or not, but I seriously doubt it.

Again, this is much ado about nothing. Unless you swing as hard as a typical pro and strike the ball as precisely, then any perceived difference is all in your head.

[Valleygolfer]

I do, haven't you seen my other threads? You best calm down, I would hate to see you have an aneurysm. Once again this rule has cost a lot of companies time and money. If you as an amateur do not see the difference on the course, you will probably notice it in your wallet.

[shades9323]

If you as an amateur do not see the difference on the course, you will probably notice it in your wallet.

What are you trying to say here?

[Fourputt]

I do, haven't you seen my other threads? You best calm down, I would hate to see you have an aneurysm. Once again this rule has cost a lot of companies time and money. If you as an amateur do not see the difference on the course, you will probably notice it in your wallet.

I'm not the one who's getting excited about it... I'm perfectly content with the new rule. And I don't see how it affects my wallet either. I've no idea where you are coming from, and no, I don't read every thread on this site.

[rebby]

I do, haven't you seen my other threads? You best calm down, I would hate to see you have an aneurysm. Once again this rule has cost a lot of companies time and money. If you as an amateur do not see the difference on the course, you will probably notice it in your wallet.

This rule has cost a lot of companies and individuals money over the past year or so. I'm one of those individuals since I have aspirations of playing some high level tournaments (or at least attempt to quality) over the next few years. As a result, I've sold my non-conforming gear, at a significant loss mind you, and replaced it with conforming gear. If they back-off on the rule change this process will likely repeat only my conforming gear will be worth next to nothing costing me even more money in the end. Sure, I wouldn't be forced to change clubs like I was this year but it's still worth mentioning.

I, for one, am against them backing off on the rule change. You think that it's a cluster now, just imagine how bad it would get if they backed off on it. A lot of golfers have invested serious money to conform to the rule this year, many of those simply didn't have the funds to do it but had to if they were going to continue to "chase the dream." Now, not only have you opened up the possibility of players getting new equipment yet again but companies also have to retool, again! This isn't cheap and with only 1 year to recoup costs from the first retooling, companies would have to eat a significant chunk of change. You thought that the major manufactures were against this groove change, just wait to see their reaction to yet another rules change. The biggest cluster of this whole works is not clearly knowing when you need conforming gear and when you don't coupled with the fact that the vast majority of golfers, even very good golfers, don't fully understand the difference between CC grooves and non-CC grooves or how to tell if their clubs conform. To top that off the USGA database is laughable and some of the ruling officials are making major mistakes as well. The implementation of this rule has sucked. Heck, the rule itself likely sucks but going back on it at this point is only going to make the situation even worse. It would have been far better had the USGA said that only CC grooves would be approved for production/sale after 2010 (as they already did) and that all competition would be adopting the new grooves for all events in 2014. That way, anything purchased over a 3 year period prior to the event would be conforming. That would likely have made this entire situation far easier to digest by all involved from the players to the manufactures to the golf shops to the event officials. Yes, there is a performance difference between the grooves. It's not a lot though. I can still suck an 8-iron off the front of a green just like I could with my non-conforming iron and just like I could with my old-school FG-17's. Spin is a product of technique more-so than equipment. If you can't suck a Pro-V1 off the front of a green with CC grooves, you're not going to do it with "Mac-Daddy" grooves either. Sure, there is less spin potential out of the rough but it's not that difficult to account for. Some minor changes that I've made is to go slightly higher lofted clubs around the green and have been relying on trajectory a bit more to stop the ball than spin. In fact, I find this to be more consistent and easier for a lot of shots. Furthermore, I don't feel that most amateurs will be affected by this rule one bit. How many of these amateurs had problems when they sold their old square groove PING Eye-2's (the real square groove ones) and got the new wiz-bang Callaway, TaylorMade or PING iron with far less aggressive grooves. I would bet a very small percentage of them did. The ones who did notice likely noticed because they were chewing up their balls a little less than they did w/their old PINGs. Their 160 yard bump and run 5-iron still went 160 yards (maybe even 165) and still ran up and over that green just like always. Their wedge shots still landed just short and hopped over the fringe up onto the green and rolled out to the middle of the green, just like before. These guys are not going to buy new clubs to get CC grooves, they'll buy new clubs on the same schedule as before and likely won't care, or won't even realize, that the grooves are different. This is a non-issue for the vast majority of golfers, the ones who are good enough to notice the affect, are good enough to adapt.

[jamo]

I do, haven't you seen my other threads? You best calm down, I would hate to see you have an aneurysm. Once again this rule has cost a lot of companies time and money. If you as an amateur do not see the difference on the course, you will probably notice it in your wallet.

Where has this cost companies money? I would argue they are making money right now because people are either a) stocking up on the old wedges, or b) buying the new, conforming wedges to be legal.

[rebby]

Where has this cost companies money? I would argue they are making money right now because people are either a) stocking up on the old wedges, or b) buying the new, conforming wedges to be legal.

Tooling. They gotta make clubs w/the new grooves. That doesn't come cheap...

[jamo]

Tooling. They gotta make clubs w/the new grooves. That doesn't come cheap...

What do you mean? They already make wedges with the old grooves, do they have to buy new equipment to make the new grooves?

(Sorry if that's a dumb question.)

[rebby]

What do you mean? They already make wedges with the old grooves, do they have to buy new equipment to make the new grooves?

Yes. The cost was especially significant for those companies who "cut" the gooves during the casting or forging process.

[Valleygolfer]

Tooling. They gotta make clubs w/the new grooves. That doesn't come cheap...

He is correct. Who do you think pays for the R & D? Pros? It is pushed over to us the consumer and pros without sponsorship. I can see Rebby's point of not wanting to go back and forth but R&D; should have told them (PGA) that this was not going to change things.

[zeg]

Changing the rule back would be far worse than leaving it in place. The cost argument supports this---retooling or buying equipment to conform to the new rule is already a sunk cost. Changing it back will require further expense.

Like the rules or not, they're the same for everyone within a competition, so no one is penalized unfairly.

And really, a couple of low-ball rounds are the evidence that the rules are failing? Let's wait a bit and see what the real effects are. After all, a very low round is likely to be the least affected by this change. It's the guys who are fighting their way out of the rough who will see the impact.