Stack n Tilt? A thorn in my side...

[Floger]

I have been on the quest for about 2 months to learn SnT after bagging trying to learn the many synchronized moves required to make a conventional swing consistently. I think in the three years I have been playing golf I naturally had some SnT basics - weight forward, butt tuck, arms in but I also had other non-SnT things too. So I thought this would be an easy transition by learning a simple swing (as its touted) the correct way rather than mimicking what I see players do on TV.

SnT attracted me because of all of the hype I heard about solid ball striking. I always had a relatively straight ball, but felt I was "scooping since I had such a high trajectory - even with a 5 iron. I was losing a TON of yards because I was not striking it correctly.

Now after TRYING to learn the full SnT swing, I am thouroughly frustrated and pissed off. Please pardon my blunt demeanor. My ball striking is worse than ever, now matter how I try and use the "fixes" listed in the book (SnT - Definitive Guide) I am still hitting waaaaaaaay behind the ball, my backswing feels awkward and follow thru to finish feels that way as well - so pretty much all of it if I try and do it correctly - or so I think.

The game was tough enough when I stepped up to a shot wondering how short I would be and how many strokes I was losing due to my straight, short, super high ball flight, but now my confidence is totally gone and now its just emabrrassing. At least before I hit a high straight SHORT shot - maybe 5 yds difference between clubs, but at least it was in play. Now my hands, wrists, everything hurts from digging trenches at the course by hitting behind the ball. I am in the dog house big time with my wife from what this transition has done to my yard. I will need to re-sod my lawn in the fall due to my horrid practice sessions.

I managed to scrape a 93 outta my rear yesterday after I reverted back to old swing patterns to tryand salvage the day cuz I was gonna be at 93 on the front nine if I continued SnT.

I feel I am above average coordination skills, why in the hell can I not grasp this? This was suppose to simplify the swing, right? A buddy is gonna let me borrow the dvds to watch since I told him I am more a visual learner than reading a paragraph of how to do something. Maybe this will help.

[MMouse]

First of all, I love the sign in your avatar pic. There's a sign similar ( tho not nearly as funny ) at a golf course here because they have a housing development directly along one of the par 5's. Haven't broken any windows, but have left some balls in yards for the kids to play with.

On S & T, I too was frustrated with it for quite a long time and can feel your pain. A few things that have helped me:
- truly tilting my upper body towards the target on the backswing ( keeping centered BUT tilting my body to the left in the back swing ) to help with this I have a drill at do at home, work or wherever I feel like it. I get into an address position, then stand up, then tilt left, then turn my shoulders and hips. I do this 10 times and then do a backswing as 1 motion 10 times. It has helped immensely.
- the back swing does not need to be John Daly style. I used to swing like this and it gave me the power I had. I could see the clubhead on my backswing out of my left eye with every club. Start by taking the arms to parralell to the ground, no further and swinging.
- as I swing I "feel" as though I am slowly moving forward from the moment I begin my backswing.
- the spring board/butt tuck which it sounds like you already have down. I use the crush the can drill as my feel for this. I keep moving forward and drive myself through that left leg.
- practice making some easy half shots taking the arms to parallel on the back swing and tossing them straight towards the target, extended on the follow through and stopping there. This is a popular S & T drill ( the arm extension part anyway )

I've struggled with S & T and am still far from great at it. It has however lead me to better ball striking, better control of the curve of the ball and I shot my best course ever on one of the hardest courses locally using the swing, yet doing it imperfectly.

[Floger]

The "tilt" part seems to be what is giving me fits. I feel as if I have so much distance, area, whatever to compensate for when my left shoulder is pointing at the ground to the time i get to butt tuck, I feel out of control. But I will try your suggestions. Thanks much! How long have you been at SnT?

Funny thing is, I signed up a 5 lessons recently. The first lesson was horrid. "You got too much weight on your left side, bring the club more behind your head pointing at the target, etc, etc basically non SnT. I mentioned that I was learning SnT and was told to scrap all of it. So I chalked that up as a learning experience and got a refund on my 4 remaining lessons. I have called several local pros inquiring about lessons and stating up front that I would like to stay with SnT principles since I feel I would have a better chance of grasping it to a respectable level rather than conventional. They just laugh and start debunking SnT. So this quest is without professional instruction since I surely cannot afford $1500 for the school in PA, shoot I had to borrow the dvds since I couldnt shell out $90 to own them!

[jamo]

The "tilt" part seems to be what is giving me fits. I feel as if I have so much distance, area, whatever to compensate for when my left shoulder is pointing at the ground to the time i get to butt tuck, I feel out of control.

I'm no SnT expert (or even user, per se) but I find when my shoulder turn gets too flat that my head is moving. When that starts happening I make swings where on the backswing the only thing I think about it keeping my head perfectly still. Seems to work for me.

[iacas]

Now after TRYING to learn the full SnT swing, I am thouroughly frustrated and pissed off. Please pardon my blunt demeanor. My ball striking is worse than ever, now matter how I try and use the "fixes" listed in the book (SnT - Definitive Guide) I am still hitting waaaaaaaay behind the ball, my backswing feels awkward and follow thru to finish feels that way as well - so pretty much all of it if I try and do it correctly - or so I think.

That's going to be part of the problem - you're probably not doing it correctly. If you're hitting the ball fat either your weight isn't forward enough OR you're losing the flying wedge. 95% of the time, it's one of those two things. Maybe even higher.

I feel I am above average coordination skills, why in the hell can I not grasp this? This was suppose to simplify the swing, right? A buddy is gonna let me borrow the dvds to watch since I told him I am more a visual learner than reading a paragraph of how to do something. Maybe this will help.

Maybe it will help. Maybe you should sign up for evolvr. Learning the swing - regardless of the method you employ - on your own is pointless. At no point did you say that you've look at your swing on video. Do you have a video camera? Have you got any swings recorded?

There's an obvious and likely easy solution to things that you're just not seeing or just haven't discovered for yourself. Feel isn't real, and though you feel you're doing things, I'd wager a lot of money that your swing on video looks next to nothing like you think it does.

- truly tilting my upper body towards the target on the backswing ( keeping centered BUT tilting my body to the left in the back swing ) to help with this I have a drill at do at home, work or wherever I feel like it. I get into an address position, then stand up, then tilt left, then turn my shoulders and hips. I do this 10 times and then do a backswing as 1 motion 10 times. It has helped immensely.

To be clear, that motion is not "towards the target". Left tilting rotated 90° is towards the golf ball, not towards the target. You say that when you add in the "rotating" part. Most people find it easiest to "stand up, rotate, and THEN tilt left." Tilting left and then rotating is a bit awkward. Anyway, just wanted to clear that up - there's no "towards the target," really.

- the spring board/butt tuck which it sounds like you already have down.

Quite frankly, I highly doubt it. If he had that down, the club would exit the ground more quickly and he wouldn't take massive divots and tear chunks out of his yard.

Edit: Wait, you said you flip and that's why the ball goes high and short. Flipping is definitely not something you want to do in S&T; and it's directly opposite the "flying wedge" I talked about in my post. If you lose the flying wedge, the swing radius gets longer and the club bottoms out sooner and deeper. I'd still like to see your swing on video... have you?

[iacas]

The "tilt" part seems to be what is giving me fits. I feel as if I have so much distance, area, whatever to compensate for when my left shoulder is pointing at the ground to the time i get to butt tuck, I feel out of control.

That's an odd sensation, to feel out of control there. S&T; promotes a very connected swing. The tilting (which lets your shoulders rotate in a circle) leads to a steady head, which is the opposite (I'd think) of "out of control."

They just laugh and start debunking SnT. So this quest is without professional instruction since I surely cannot afford $1500 for the school in PA, shoot I had to borrow the dvds since I couldnt shell out $90 to own them!

evolvr is $39/month, but if that's out of your price range too, then so be it. $1500? Our schools are about $425, but I don't know what your other costs are - flight, hotel, etc.

I do think you were wise to move away from the instructors, and not just because they bashed S&T;, but because they likely didn't know anything about it. Unless you're asking about some incredibly bizarre swing method that nobody uses (I'm talking about you, Natural Golf! Okay, not really...), the only instructors I'd ever see would be able to seriously say that they'd studied that swing, gleaned from it what they can, and can calmly list the positives and negatives. Once someone resorts to "debunking" it becomes clear to me that they're just spouting off and they've never actually looked at it with any seriousness. I'd only ever want to take instruction from a student of the game.

I'm no SnT expert (or even user, per se) but I find when my shoulder turn gets too flat that my head is moving. When that starts happening I make swings where on the backswing the only thing I think about it keeping my head perfectly still. Seems to work for me.

jamo, your shoulder turn IS too flat.

[jamo]

jamo, your shoulder turn IS too flat.

And without that it'd be even flatter!

[Floger]

One of my (many) swing thoughts is keeping a flat left wrist. On par three's I waste a hole (not trying to score) and use the flying wedge drill. Maybe of the 100+ times I have attempted this, I have hit it solid and correctly maybe 10 times. The rest are hard, deep divots with the ball going maybe 50 yds. But WOW, its amazing how the sweeping motion and flat left wrist makes in ball flight. What I used a 9 iron for on my "flip" swing, when I hit it using a flat wrist (correctly and solid), I had to go down to a gap wedge.

Those are two things that I have been working very hard on the past 3 weeks - feeling comfortable and steady in the backswing and maintaining a flat left wrist. This combo has torn my yard and my wrists up! I wouldn't mind the yard if the divots were correct! :) But now there are two divots - the incorrect swing divot then the one from beating my club into the ground! Glad I dont use my "game" clubs in the yard.

Where did I get $1500? Geez I was way off. My love for the game and wanting to get a respectable swing I trust to make this more enjoyable, I would scrounge up $425 and sleep in the car and pack PBJ's.

[Deryck Griffith]

I have been on the quest for about 2 months to learn SnT after bagging trying to learn the many synchronized moves required to make a conventional swing consistently. I think in the three years I have been playing golf I naturally had some SnT basics - weight forward, butt tuck, arms in but I also had other non-SnT things too. So I thought this would be an easy transition by learning a simple swing (as its touted) the correct way rather than mimicking what I see players do on TV.

As Iacas mentioned, feel isn't real and what you think you may be doing isn't necessarily the case. You should certainly look into Iacas's suggestions and get your swing videotaped. It will be an enlightening experience for you to see your swing live and could be a lightbulb moment for you in your quest to get better...and remember, trying to get better and venting your struggles is definitely a good thing. I appreciate people who are honest with themselves and strive to be better. Don't give up on S&T; just yet!

[iacas]

Those are two things that I have been working very hard on the past 3 weeks - feeling comfortable and steady in the backswing and maintaining a flat left wrist.

It's incredibly difficult to "feel" a flat left wrist. People who flip don't know they do it.

Again, I can't emphasize enough how far feel is from real. Get yourself a video camera. An FH-25 from Casio is pretty good. Or an FH-100.

Where did I get $1500? Geez I was way off. My love for the game and wanting to get a respectable swing I trust to make this more enjoyable, I would scrounge up $425 and sleep in the car and pack PBJ's.

We have an opening or two left in our August 28 school. Our August 21 school sold out so quickly we made a second one in August.

As Iacas mentioned, feel isn't real and what you think you may be doing isn't necessarily the case. You should certainly look into Iacas's suggestions and get your swing videotaped.

Just wanted to put that part out there again.

[motteler621]

It's incredibly difficult to "feel" a flat left wrist. People who flip don't know they do it.

Yea I agree, videotape your swing. My current camera is a canon sx10IS, a 400.00 camera a year and half ago. Its a great camera but only videotapes in 30fps. It works pretty good but I want to try to sell it on ebay and use that money on a high speed camera like one of the casios. We'll see.

[ccmcleod]

Now after TRYING to learn the full SnT swing, I am thouroughly frustrated and pissed off. Please pardon my blunt demeanor. My ball striking is worse than ever, now matter how I try and use the "fixes" listed in the book (SnT - Definitive Guide) I am still hitting waaaaaaaay behind the ball, my backswing feels awkward and follow thru to finish feels that way as well - so pretty much all of it if I try and do it correctly - or so I think.

To the OP, I've been swinging with S&T; for over a year now, and striking it better than I ever have in my life. I've been to see an instructor (Steve Sieracki) and been to a clinic with Mike and Andy. In addition to what Iacas said, one of my issues when fat shots creep in is letting my right arm straighten too fast. Look at Charlie Wi and his right arm at impact as his hips push forward....

[Floger]

Thanks for everyone's feedback. Charlie Wi video is a great reference for me to watch, thanks. I will bookmark it. Do I detect a bit of a flip at impact for Charlie?

I did videotape my swing last night - with my wife holding my BlackBerry. Better than nothing and at least gives me a visual rather than going on feel as was mentioned.

No flipping going on, in fact, maybe I am over emphasizing the flying wedge its so flat. My head is very still, good spine tilt and good hip slide to butt tuck. However, I look as if I have too much weight on my left leg. Is this possible? The book says add more weight for slicers. I tend to slice drives but not irons. I guess I am applying that weight for my driver to my irons. Should I decrease the weight for irons and go back to 55/45 then use 80/20 for driver? Could this weight ditribution be causing my to hit behind the ball? Also, my back seems to be more flat than rounded.

[Zeph]

Could you post the video? I'd really recommend you get someone else to review your swing too. I know from personal experience that my knowledge about the swing is not good enough to self-analyse myself.

With all those things you mention, and too much weight on the left foot, it is nearly impossible to hit the ball fat. Post the video here.

[iacas]

Could you post the video? I'd really recommend you get someone else to review your swing too. I know from personal experience that my knowledge about the swing is not good enough to self-analyse myself.

Everything that Zeph said x 2.