Rule Question

[Bug Bunny]

So went out and played with a buddy for his birthday yesterday. On a par three, I hit it left about 3 feet from a pine tree. Had about a 20 foot chip. Here is my question. . . .

A pine cone was right behind my ball. I ask can I move it (I'm not in a bunker or hazard or anything). I move the pine cone. Step back, start lining my shot up. After taking a couple practice swings away from the ball, I step back and my ball rolls back about 4". Now this is about 10 seconds after I moved the pine cone. And my club is nowhere close to the ball when it moves. What is the official ruling???

[Jay-Bird]

Did the removal of the loose impediment cause the ball to move?

If the removal of a loose impediment causes the ball to move, Rule 18-2a applies.

[zeg]

If you addressed the ball (by taking your stance and grounding your club) at any point, then you caused it to move regardless of any other considerations and you receive a penalty stroke and must replace the ball. This applies even if your club was nowhere near it when it moved.

That doesn't sound like the case, though. It then is a "question of fact" whether you caused it to move or not. However, unless there's a plausible explanation (a gust of wind, another pine cone falling nearby, or something), the Decisions call for any doubt to be resolved against you. See Decision 18-2a/30.5 for the nearest case I can see. I don't think the delay is material, except that it might make it easier to conclude that you did not, in fact, cause the ball to move.

[Fozcycle]

Here is the Rule: .......go down to 18-2.b

Rule 18. Ball at Rest Moved

Definitions
All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

18-1. By Outside Agency
If a ball at rest is moved by an outside agency, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced.
Note: It is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that an outside agency has moved the ball. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must play the ball as it lies or, if the ball is not found, proceed under Rule 27-1.
(Player's ball at rest moved by another ball - see Rule 18-5.)

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment
a. General
When a player's ball is in play, if:
(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or
(ii)equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,
the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.
If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.
Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:
· In searching for a ball in a hazard covered by loose impediments or sand, for a ball in an obstruction or abnormal ground condition or for a ball believed to be in water in a water hazard - Rule 12-1
· In repairing a hole plug or ball mark - Rule 16-1c
· In measuring - Rule 18-6
· In lifting a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-1
· In placing or replacing a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-3a
· In removing a loose impediment on the putting green - Rule 23-1
· In removing movable obstructions - Rule 24-1.

b. Ball Moving After Address

If a player's ball in playmoves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke.
The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

18-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
a. During Search
If, during search for a player's ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipmentmoves the ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.
b. Other Than During Search
If, other than during search for a player's ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipmentmoves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules,
the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke.
If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.
(Playing a wrong ball - see Rule 15-3.)
(Ball moved in measuring - see Rule 18-6.)

18-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie or Equipment in Stroke Play
If a fellow-competitor, his caddie or his equipmentmoves the player's ball, touches it or causes it to move, there is no penalty. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.
(Playing a wrong ball - see Rule 15-3.)

18-5. By Another Ball
If a ball in play and at rest is moved by another ball in motion after a stroke, the moved ball must be replaced.

18-6. Ball Moved in Measuring
If a ball or ball-marker is moved in measuring while proceeding under or in determining the application of a Rule, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided he movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of measuring. Otherwise, the provisions of Rule 18-2a, 18-3b or 18-4 apply.

*Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

*If a player who is required to replace a ball fails to do so, or if he makes a stroke at a ball substituted under Rule 18 when such substitution is not permitted, he incurs the general penalty for breach of Rule 18, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule.
Note 1: If a ball to be replaced under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
Note 2: If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered, see Rule 20-3b.
Note 3: If it is impossible to determine the spot on which a ball is to be placed, see Rule 20-3c.

This and other rules of golf can be found on the usga.org website.....

[Bug Bunny]

The ball moved after moving the pine cone but before I addressed it. I was in the process of stepping back to the ball to address it but had definitely NOT addressed it when it moved. So am I reading it right in that I play it as it lies with no penalty???

[pittpanther]

The ball moved after moving the pine cone but before I addressed it. I was in the process of stepping back to the ball to address it but had definitely NOT addressed it when it moved. So am I reading it right in that I

My interpretation - you replace the ball where it was, with no penalty, as long as you had not addressed the ball at any point.

[Bug Bunny]

My interpretation - you replace the ball where it was, with no penalty, as long as you had not addressed the ball at any point.

I definitely had not! That's how I played it. And got up and down for par!!! ;)

[zeg]

My interpretation - you replace the ball where it was, with no penalty, as long as you had not addressed the ball at any point.

No, unless an outside agency (or other similar things, such as another ball or another player in stroke play) moved the ball (of which you must be at least virtually certain of the cause), you would not replace it. Since it's clear that none of those happened, either you replace it with a one-stroke penalty after deciding that your action was the cause of the movement, or you decide that it was wind or some other cause besides an outside agency-like thing. In that case, you play it as it lies with no penalty.

Bug Bunny was correct in his previous post, assuming that he could be nearly certain that the moving of the pine cone was NOT the cause of the subsequent movement. Play it as it lies.

[Fourputt]

My interpretation - you replace the ball where it was, with no penalty, as long as you had not addressed the ball at any point.

This is wrong, he either plays it as it lies with no penalty or he plays it as it lies with a 2 stroke penalty. If he has to replace the ball then it is only because it was deemed that he was responsible for moving it and he incurs a one stroke penalty.

Here are the options, and it all depends on matters of fact: 1. He is deemed to have caused the ball to move by removing a loose impediment. One stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced. Failure to replace the ball before making a stroke turns the one stroke penalty into 2 strokes for playing from a wrong place. 2. The ball moved entirely on its own. It is played as it lies with no penalty. In this case, if he replaced the ball, then made a stroke, he played from a wrong place and incurred a 2 stroke penalty. Just because he hadn't addressed the ball doesn't automatically absolve him from responsibility. This is touchy situation, because removal of a loose impediment which is in such close proximity to the ball will usually be deemed to be the cause, even if the movement is delayed for a few seconds. A rules official would have to interview the player carefully and I have a strong feeling that the player would ultimately be deemed responsible. But not having been there to see it makes it a difficult call.

[Jay-Bird]

I would say that since he did not address the ball, and the ball did not move as a result of moving the pine cone, then he played correctly and made his par. Good par!

[Bigtank]

that ball would not have moved without your removal of the pine cone, so therefore you would be deemed responsible for the movement 1 stroke penalty.

I think the confusion is that a pine cone is not an "movable object", but as part of the course.

Sorry, the earlier poster was correct, by replacing the ball you would have incurred a 2 stroke penalty. However, that is a fantastic question!

[Bug Bunny]

Well it's clear as mud now. Haha. Anyway, my reply earlier was not accurate. I replied quickly. I did in fact play it as it lied after it moved and wrote down par. It was on a slight downhill and I was careful when I removed the pine cone and the ball did not move at all. I then stepped away figuring my line and the stroke.

Am I accurate in that if I didn't think the pine cone removal caused the ball to move then no penalty? And if I did it's a two stroke penalty because I did not replace the ball????

Either way it was obviously a touchy situation!!!

[Bigtank]

If you believe it did not cause the ball to move, no penalty, play it as it lies. If you think it was the casue, and you played it as it lies, one strok penalty.

[zeg]

Am I accurate in that if I didn't think the pine cone removal caused the ball to move then no penalty? And if I did it's a two stroke penalty because I did not replace the ball????

That is correct. The penalties that could be applied are either none (ball moved because of wind or settling on its own), one stroke (ball moved because of your actions and you replaced it), or two strokes (ball should have been replaced and wasn't). Again, the bar for concluding that you didn't cause it would be pretty high in this case, but it sounds like you're pretty certain.

[Jay-Bird]

I think the confusion is that a pine cone is not an "movable object", but as part of the course.

What?

A pine cone is a loose impedent.

Loose Impediments

[Ignorant]

This is wrong, he either plays it as it lies with no penalty or he plays it as it lies with a 2 stroke penalty. If he has to replace the ball then it is only because it was deemed that he was responsible for moving it and he incurs a one stroke penalty.

I'm with Rick. Even for a Rules Official present it would be a tough call if he did not witness the scene.

As already stated, the facts are relevant. Did the pine cone touch the ball or not? In the latter case the odds are for the player and in the former against.

[Zeph]

Look at it this way. You hit the ball 150+ yards, it comes to rest next to a pine cone. You take some minutes getting to the ball while it stays still. You see the pine cone and remove it. 10 seconds later the ball starts moving. I would say it is no doubt that the ball moved because you removed the pine cone. After laying still for that long time, that is should suddenly start moving all by itself when you moved the cone is just a hard coinkidink for me to believe.

[zeg]

Look at it this way. You hit the ball 150+ yards, it comes to rest next to a pine cone. You take some minutes getting to the ball while it stays still. You see the pine cone and remove it. 10 seconds later the ball starts moving. I would say it is no doubt that the ball moved because you removed the pine cone. After laying still for that long time, that is should suddenly start moving all by itself when you moved the cone is just a hard coinkidink for me to believe.

I agree. Unless you've got a plausible explanation for the cause, I think it'd be pretty hard to justify not being responsible. If it's not clear, in this type of situation you *do not* get the benefit of the doubt.