Charley Hoffman's Winning Draw

[kafka01]

BTW S&T; is a pattern built via "building blocks" or "methods" that can be found in decade old swings. Just look into TGM and you probably can rebuild a S&T; pattern. And i´m sure Bennett and Plummer are not claiming "copyright" for the modules they used to built the S&T; pattern, but for the whole package - which is fine imo, since they seem to be the first ones who went this route and promoted it this way. Now, was Ben Hogan a S&Ter; or Tiger or O´Hair - NO, they are just using methods that have been around for ages, and nowadays are incorrectly labled as S&T; pattern instead of a pure building block.

[iacas]

KIS, your post doesn't really speak to the comment (of mine) that you quoted.

S&T; was derived from what players from the 1950s-1970s did. It's 100% fine to say that Hogan had an inward hand path and remained stacked on his backswing, and had a huge hip slide, etc. etc. etc. He did. Hogan did a lot of the S&T; pattern. Again, that's not to "take credit" for Hogan's swing, but simply to GIVE credit to Hogan, and to all of the best players, because again the pattern comes from what the best players throughout time have done. It's a return to the true fundamentals as derived from the eyes of "how have the best players done it through time? What do they do that average golfers don't do?"

Hogan, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead... Watson... Tiger, etc. may exhibit a lot of S&T; moves but not a single one of these players use the S&T; swing.

Nobody's claiming they did the entire pattern.

You don't seem to understand is that it's a PATTERN. You don't need to do all of the pieces, and almost nobody being taught by Mike and Andy do EVERY piece. They incorporate the pieces they need to take their ballstriking or ball flight control or power to the next level and then, typically, continue to work on maintenance. It's a pattern. It has room for personal tendencies. It has rather wide ranges of acceptable values. It's a system of measurement and categorization - it's not a "you must accept all of this or you can't play golf."

If one component is missing (and the components are well defined in the book and video) than it is not an S&T; swing.

Why are you trying to define "what is an S&T; swing"? Who cares? You don't need to do a 100% S&T; swing to improve the geometry of your golf swing.

Sean Foley does not teach S&T; because he does not incorporate all the moves and nor is it likely he ever will.

Now we're really getting off topic. The short response to that is Mike and Andy don't "incorporate all the moves" in the players they teach on a personal, case by case basis. It's understanding the entire pattern - which Sean now does thanks to his constant, insistent bugging of Mike and particularly Andy, that make him what he is.

There is a good youtube video of Sean O'hair giving a golf clinic and he clearly shows the difference between S&T; and Foley's method.

That video's a bit of a joke, and since this isn't the thread for it, but the simple version is this: there are two main problems with the video. First, what Sean O'Hair says is Stack and Tilt is not. He doesn't understand it all. 2) What Sean says he does (not sliding his hips forward, etc.), he does. Indisputably. Feel isn't real, even on the PGA Tour level.

Let me put it another way: Sean O'Hair is as close to doing ALL of the pieces of the pattern as well as almost anyone else on the PGA Tour.

To claim you are an S&T; swinger you need to be constantly working towards incorporating ALL the components into your swing.

I don't define it that way, and I don't know of anyone else who does. If you want that definition then there might literally be no S&T; golfers in the world. Not even Mike Bennett. Define it that way if you like... the definition doesn't make sense to me, though.

And i´m sure Bennett and Plummer are not claiming "copyright" for the modules they used to built the S&T; pattern, but for the whole package - which is fine imo, since they seem to be the first ones who went this route and promoted it this way.

That's a good way of looking at it. For example consider chords or musical notes. They exist, and everyone has access to those chords or those notes. But how they're arranged determines the song.

That's not a great example because that implies that to get the same "song" you have to play all of the same notes. So it's more like a song with interchangeable parts and plenty of room for guitar riffs, drum solos, etc. A rough analogy, admittedly.

Iacas -thanks a lot for posting this video. I dont have too much trouble getting this shotshape with an open clubface, angled hinge and cutting it left, but what really bugs me is trying to hit a pull fade at the moment. I guess there is no other way around than leaving the inside square inside path and coming from the outside, or?

If I need to hit a cut... I can go one of two ways.

1) Aim well left. If my stock shot is a 10-yard draw with a 6-iron, say, then I'll aim 30 yards left, point the clubface 10 yards left, and my normal inside-out path will still be inside out relative to my feet but outside in to my clubface. I'm making these numbers up - it's a feel thing. I'll leave the handle back just a tad and put the ball just a tad forward in my stance. It's a "push draw" (push from the stance line), and the ball will start left and fade to the target. 2) I'll hit what Mac O'Grady would call a CP fade. Aim just fractionally left, and rather than keeping the depth with your left arm on the downswing, throw the left arm out so that it feels parallel to the foot line at P5 and just swing hard to the left from there. It tends to hit the ball low, but it'll cut. Not the easiest to do if you aren't sure or if you just try to do it based on what I've said here.

[Leftygolfer]

Thanks Erik for the video. What I took from it was an anti-hook move and I struggle hitting hooks. I played last weekend and felt like (which is a total illusion) that I didn't ever let the club turn over, particularly with the irons. In my practice swings, I'd try to exagerate that feeling of holding off turning over the club so I could start the ball left instead of pulling the ball. Results were pretty good for the most part. I hit a bunch of irons on line and I can only recall over drawing it once and no wild right hooks that are just impossible to recover from. I did over do-it in the later part of the round with the driver and hit 2 push slices OB back to back then a push with my 7 wood ob on the next hole but overall that feeling or change (who know's what I'm really doing) really helped tame my draw. Another thing I noticed with that change is a lost a bit of distance with the irons. I had two irons I know I hit well and had good yardages that came up a club short. It just got done raining so maybe it was the thick most air but I will take a club more to avoid really hard up and downs from the right.

[golfro]

i think what Keep It Simple may not be understanding is that S&T; isn't necessarily a specific SWING. Its a swing theory. There are many parts of different swings that are incorporated. The swing theory allows golfers of any skill level to incorporate pieces of the S&T; swing to best benefit their game.

I don't think its so black and white as "hes a S&T; swinger or not". A S&T; student from what I understand is one who studies and understands the theory behind S&T; and incorporates the pieces into his/her swing to best benefit their ball striking. I would imagine if I was to hypothetically hire Andy or Mike as my own personal coach, they wouldn't try to recreate my entire swing to incorporate 100% of a S&T; swing. I'd imagine they'd have me incoporate pieces of it into my swing to where they see best fit.

For me, I don't incorporate a lot of S&T.; I don't consider myself a student of S&T; and despite my interest in it, I do disagree on particular points. However, the more you study S&T;, you begin to realize many flaws in your own swing. I was doing perfectly fine before S&T...recently; I decided to incorporate some pieces of S&T; such as a more steeper shoulder turn which in turn actually helped a lot with getting a fuller shoulder turn as well as keeping my back swing more in plane. And then there are other factors of S&T; like keeping your weight 55 or 60% on the left side :) That just feels weird to me when I do it.

[chris_284]

Originally Posted by sara

I tend to swing like that. It is most noticeable with the driver, I end up with the clubface looking up at the sky. My instructor has been trying to rid me of that for a while now and I've been working on "releasing" the club.

Show your instructor this video and ask why you need to "release" at all. I'm so glad I found SnT so I don't have to listen to the "conventional" people that apparently don't know what they're talking about.

Hmm, this is interesting. I currently go what CH is doing here. I don't have that 'right side release' that pros talk about, but I basically have done what CH is doing for many years now. When I do it my old way, like you see CH doing in this video, it causes my club face to be slightly open at impact and creates a higher trajectory. My instructor has been working on my 'right side release'. When I do this, the slice disappears and I hit the ball straight. If i release more, a little draw, less, a little fade.

What is correct? There seems to be 2 different schools of thought here.

[RC]

My instructor has been working on my 'right side release'. When I do this, the slice disappears and I hit the ball straight. If i release more, a little draw, less, a little fade.

There are two entirely different ideas about what releasing your right side really means. The incorrect one, in my opinion, is the flipping over motion (or rolling the right hand over, etc.) The correct one is when the right side fully extends and the arms are straight past the point of impact for the shot as the body continues turning. This is the release referred to as the Nicklaus release in a video posted in another part of the discussion.

And, what should happen is... the harder and more fully you release the right side (when done correctly) the straighter the shot. If you start fading it then your weight shift left may be slow or you are spinning your hips while letting your swing center drift a bit to your right side. When done correctly, your weight is well left, your head is behind the ball, and your hips can spin out in front of the shot. Get that part down and you can release and swing as hard as you want to, and flipping the club face is a non factor (unless you do it wrong.) JMHO

[MJP]

I'll probably watch this video 100 times a week. That swing Charley made on 17 was just so perfect. I can't stop watching it.

[bunkerputt]

Sorry to revive this old thread, but this is exactly what I'm working on right now, maintaining the flying wedge and preventing the wrist roll.  It seems to go hand-in-hand with having a lower right shoulder as that gets the grip end moving up in the air after impact.  Did anyone notice that it looks like his right thumb is off the shaft and then grabs back on right after impact?  I can't tell if he's actually doing this or if it's a camera angle thing.  Great drill to do.