My Swing (Open-Faced Club Sandwedge)

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

I finally got a couple videos of my swing, and wanted to get your thoughts. Sorry about the quality, it was a cell phone in dubious lighting conditions. Hopefully you can see well enough to give some feedback.

The DTL video is not exactly down the line. It's pretty much along my toe line, but I apparently set up with a bit of a closed stance. I'm aiming to hit the ball about 10 yards left of where the camera is looking. And the camera is a little below hip-height for each video.

DTL, 6-iron:


Face-On, alternating irons (9-6-6-9):


Lemme know what I'm doing visibly right and wrong.

-Andrew

[melchior]

First let me ask what do you want out of your swing?

It looks like you're pull-fading; so do you want to keep that?

Do you generally fat/thin the ball so are you looking for better contact (somewhat alleviated by the mats you're hitting off of)?

Are you trying to get rid of pushes/pulls for your mishits?

Mainly: what direction do you want to go in with your swing?

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

It looks like you're pull-fading; so do you want to keep that?

That's not true, generally. Shots where I hit the ball first are usually either straight-draws or slight pull-draws, with occasional mild pushes, and also occasional pull-hooks.

Do you generally fat/thin the ball so are you looking for better contact (somewhat alleviated by the mats you're hitting off of)?

Yes, I generally hit a lot of fat shots, and yes I'm definitely looking for more consistently good contact. With the mats, the fat shots sometimes result in decent ball flight (bouncing into the ball), but I can tell the difference.

Are you trying to get rid of pushes/pulls for your mishits?

Yeah, the pull-hooks have got to go. Also sometimes I have a tendency to hold the club off, or hold the body rotation off, or otherwise tense up and "put the brakes" on the swing as my instructor calls it, resulting in the face remaining open and a push-fade flight.

Mainly: what direction do you want to go in with your swing?

I want to reach the point where I'm consistently striking the ball with the sweet spot (or at least close to the sweet spot), with the face consistently square to the target line. Recently I've made improvements to powering the swing with my body and letting the arms be more passive, and I think that's helping with the square face, since the passive arms make the arms turn through more naturally (less coordination and timing involved).

More distance is not on my wish-list, and neither is learning to work the ball. Similarly, I'll worry about whether I'm hitting down on the ball once I'm consistently hitting the ball first. Although I think I already do well with this when I do strike the ball well; my hands are ahead of the ball, and I get an upward curve to the trajectory from the backspin. That said, I don't want to learn to hit the ball well at the expense of putting bad habits into my swing. I don't want to learn compensations; I want to fix flaws. So while there are certain goals that aren't on my list, I want to be sure I don't shoot myself in the foot with respect to those goals also. -Andrew

[iacas]

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

On the left, note the red line. This shows where your shaft is...

Are you sure? That red line really doesn't look right to me. I was able to capture this picture a frame or two before the one you captured:

Attachment 2481

Well laid off, under plane, and missing wrist cock...

If I cock my wrists from there, it puts the club way past parallel. My instructor has been working with me not to do this. As to laid off and under plane, I point again to the picture above... are you sure it's not just a video quality issue? Perhaps I'm mistaking what you mean?

Steeper shoulders are a must, as they will get the hand to at least the elbow plane which you're still well under...

I understand the part about steeper shoulders (and I can see what you mean), but the rest sounds like greek. Can you explain what that sentence means?

Lots of head movement that we want to minimize...

I see what you mean there too, but I don't know how to fix it. When I swing, it doesn't feel like my head is moving. Can you suggest some techniques for working on this flaw?

-Andrew

[iacas]

Are you sure?

Yep. It's between two frames and the shaft is blurry but it's close to the red line I drew, yes.

If I cock my wrists from there, it puts the club way past parallel.

It's past parallel because:

a) you turn your shoulders too flat and too much - you're past 90 degrees here. b) you need to cock them EARLIER, not more.

Can you explain what that sentence means?

The elbow plane - a line from the ball through the elbows at setup. The top of the two lines I've drawn. You're still below it, and that's too low.

I see what you mean there too, but I don't know how to fix it.

The head movement on the backswing is a matter of more extension. Stand up more from your hip joints on the takeaway. Get the right hip higher and push into the ground through your left foot more on the backswing.

[LongballGer]

Your right leg straightens on the backswing. Work on maintaining the flex in your right knee on the backswing. Your head movement is fine. The reason why you often hit fat shots and pulls is because the club is coming in too steep on the downswing. The reason it´s coming in steep is because on the backswing you´re rotating your forerams too much resulting in the club being too flat and laid off. The tendency from there is to get steep on the way down. The two things you should work on are not rotating your forearms so much on the backswing and maintaing the flex in your right leg.

[iacas]

Your right leg straightens on the backswing. Work on maintaining the flex in your right knee on the backswing. Your head movement is fine.

Unfortunately, today is not opposite day.

[LongballGer]

Unfortunately, today is not opposite day.

Oops, I forgot this was a stack and tilt forum.

[Phil McGleno]

Oops, I forgot this was a stack and tilt forum.

It's not (and I'm not an S&T; instructor). The golf swing has evolved from Ballard's "move way off the ball" with maintaining the knee flex into a swing in which the rear leg straightens and the head stays relatively centered. Those two things are principles in the modern, solid swing. They also happen to be part of S&T;, but a good many golfers have had steady heads and straightened their rear legs for decades before S&T.;

I know there's this thread for the first http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...ldo-and-Kostis and for the head movement part, you'd have to agree that less moving parts would increase consistency. What are your credentials? I don't trust jokesters like you with your "99.9" index. If forced to guess you're a hack who thinks he knows more than he truly does.

[homerun79]

haha at first I thought you were indoors hitting at a wall with a painting of a driving range, it almost doesn't even look real for some reason...anyone else notice that? :)

[Shanks A Million]

Oops, I forgot this was a stack and tilt forum.

No, this is a "reality" forum. You're still buying into the old "do as I do, not as I say" way of teaching. Instructors and pros say one thing, but do another. They all tell you to keep the flex in your back leg, but they all straighten it. They all tell you to release the club, but they hold the lag angle well through impact.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

Regarding straightening the right leg, I used to straighten it all the way, which my instructor picked out as one of the first flaws for me to fix. I started "maintaining the flex", but of course it still straightens to some extent . My instructor doesn't point it out anymore, so I think he must agree with the majority on here that the right knee can/should straighten some, but not all the way.

-Andrew

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

Yep. It's between two frames and the shaft is blurry but it's close to the red line I drew, yes.

So the right end of the red line is where the head of my club is? It seems extremely low, but maybe that's a factor of the camera being low and looking upwards at the club.

It's past parallel because:

Well, the "past parallel" issue is definitely a camera angle thing, since the face-on view shows that the club stop just short of parallel, but to respond to the other things you said:

a) Can you suggest a way to train myself to have a steeper shoulder turn, and turn to 90 degrees but not past? b) Why would that matter? I'm not trying to be defensive; I just don't know. It seems to me that if the wrists are cocking the right amount, before the start of the downswing, it shouldn't really matter when during the backswing it happens.

The elbow plane - a line from the ball through the elbows at setup. The top of the two lines I've drawn. You're still below it, and that's too low.

Okay, that makes sense. It looks to me like my left arm is on plane with respect to my shoulders, so steepening the shoulders (and the left arm along with them) should fix this, right?

The head movement on the backswing is a matter of more extension. Stand up more from your hip joints on the takeaway. Get the right hip higher and push into the ground through your left foot more on the backswing.

So the hips should actually rise during the backswing? What about the head dip on the forward swing? Is that just a result of my height? I'm 6'2", and I struggle with figuring out the right and wrong ways to get the club to reach all the way down to the ground.

Thanks for all your help so far, and thanks in advance for continuing to clarify into terms that I can fully understand and actually implement. -Andrew

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

The reason why you often hit fat shots and pulls is because the club is coming in too steep on the downswing. The reason it´s coming in steep is because on the backswing you´re rotating your forerams too much resulting in the club being too flat and laid off. The tendency from there is to get steep on the way down.

I would like to get a consensus from the forum on whether this tidbit is accurate. Am I steep on the way down? Does that cause fats? Is this due to the club being laid off? I plan to work on not laying the club off so much regardless, but I want to know if these statements are considered true by those in the know, since I don't really have the expertise to judge their validity for myself.

-Andrew

[iacas]

So the right end of the red line is where the head of my club is? It seems extremely low, but maybe that's a factor of the camera being low and looking upwards at the club.

It's in that general area, yes. Again, it's blurry, so it's an approximation but it's a decent one. Even if you steepen it slightly it's still laid off.

a) Can you suggest a way to train myself to have a steeper shoulder turn, and turn to 90 degrees but not past?

b) Why would that matter? I'm not trying to be defensive; I just don't know. It seems to me that if the wrists are cocking the right amount, before the start of the downswing, it shouldn't really matter when during the backswing it happens.

This video applies somewhat and should help a bit. It's done quickly, and isn't great quality, but it gets the point across I believe:

Because if it happens late, you'll tend to throw it out quickly on the downswing. The club will be flat and behind you and you'll still be making compensating moves into your transition. The most efficient swing would have the clubhead traveling on the same plane, or as close to that plane as possible, not being re-routed twelve times.

So the hips should actually rise during the backswing?

The right hip should, yes. The hips have an inclined plane on which they turn as well.

What about the head dip on the forward swing? Is that just a result of my height? I'm 6'2", and I struggle with figuring out the right and wrong ways to get the club to reach all the way down to the ground.

I don't have a problem with the dip if it's used properly and if allows you to jump more for power.

I would like to get a consensus from the forum on whether this tidbit is accurate. Am I steep on the way down? Does that cause fats? Is this due to the club being laid off? I plan to work on not laying the club off so much regardless, but I want to know if these statements are considered true by those in the know, since I don't really have the expertise to judge their validity for myself.

Fats are caused by the same thing as thins in that it's one of two things:

a) you lose the flying wedge b) your weight isn't far enough forward People who get sick of hitting the ball fat pull up or pull their elbows apart and hit the ball thin, but the root causes are the same. Frankly, the video isn't the best quality. Everything's a massive blur. I know you can only work with what you've got, but... And here's another look at the shaft angle. Ideally the hands will be between these lines and the shaft will be pointing near the ball. I've drawn a red line above the shaft that you can see in this swing and you can clearly see it's close to the line I drew above on a different swing.

[saevel25]

Yep, i can easily just hit a shot fat with a shallow angle as well, with higher odds that if its dry out that my club will bounce off the ground and hit a nice duff shot, but results the same club hit ground before the ball. It doesn't matter of being steep or shallow. Look at Phil, he takes a massive divot sometimes with his wedges, but he doesn't hit it fat, he hits solid wedge shots.

[Open-Faced Club Sandwedge]

I don't have a problem with the dip if it's used properly and if allows you to jump more for power.

I think I understand most of what you're saying now, but I'm not sure I'm clear on this yet.

First, am I using the head dip properly? If not, what has to change so that I can dip and "jump" properly? Also, to my untrained eye and my (dubiously reliable) knowledge of how my swing feels, I don't believe either a) or b) applies to me. By all means correct me if I'm wrong. What it seems like to me, and this seems related to the head dip question, is that my sternum is too close to the ground as I come through impact. In other words, it kinda seems to me that the bottom of my arc is often simply too low, and that moving the bottom of the arc forward (which I think is what you're getting at), isn't enough to keep it from getting to the ground before the ball. But again, please correct the errors in my thinking here. -Andrew