Heres why I believe a Slice is caused by AN OPEN FACE!

[slicer2scratch]

After coverting my game from average slicer/hacker for years...Into a good player/Instructor who helps other golfers...this video basically confirmed alot of things for me!

I have observed and taken alot of lessons from alot of VERYgood INSTRUCTORS...
some I learned alot from others lessons here and there were disapointing...

(for all those who disagree thats cool too)
Just sharing !

[canadianpro]

I think this makes sense

[uttexas]

Here's a nice draw with an open face at impact




Yes, you can hit a push fade (as demonstrated in the posted video) by swinging in to out and having the clubface several degrees more open relative to the path---Hogan, Trevino, Nicklaus had a lot of success playing a push fade.

[Taggsy]

OP- I'm not sure where in that video Manzella convinced you that an open face is the cause of slicing. He mentions a fix for "coming over the top", i.e. having an out-to-in swing path through impact, which is what causes slicing. If you had a perfectly straight plane line through impact, and had an open clubface, then yes you'd impart clockwise spin on the ball and it would produce a fade / slice (the ball would also start out to the right). But that's not the usual cause of slicing.

uttexas- the video you've posted is a push draw, not fade. The "push" is caused by an open clubface (relative to the target line) at impact. Fading or slicing are caused by an out-to-in swing path of varying degrees or severity. Nicklaus was able to play a push fade because his stance was very open at address- he'd simply aim left at whatever his target was.

[slicer2scratch]

40 seconds in....
He says most people com over the top because they have to..there trying to avoid a ball that would start right and go farther right...

Clearly you didnt watch the video>!

If that doesnt convince you head over to his forum and do a search.... heres a qoute from his forum...

"Listen good:

The open clubface is the ONLY REASON the golfer hits a slice.

The folks that THINK they "fix" slicers by having them swing GROSSLY to the right, are influencing the HELL out of the path, with the BODY CHANGES needed to accomplish the WAY inside-out path."
".....ready for all comers......."
__________________

[sean_miller]

40 seconds in....

* Listen well . . .

[slicer2scratch]

Its a qoute ...I didnt write it

[uttexas]

uttexas- the video you've posted is a push draw, not fade. The "push" is caused by an open clubface (relative to the target line) at impact. Fading or slicing are caused by an out-to-in swing path of varying degrees or severity. Nicklaus was able to play a push fade because his stance was very open at address- he'd simply aim left at whatever his target was.

yes, the video I posted is a push draw--"here's a nice draw with an open clubface". I wasn't clear, when I said "the posted video" push fade, I was referring to slicer2scratche's posted video(s)

[iacas]

slicer2scratch, the simple truth is that you're wrong for 90%+ of golfers. Those golfers - the vast, vast majority - reach impact with a clubface that's either square or closed to the target.

It's irrelevant how they got there. Some may have been "trying" to pull a ball that once started too far to the right with their swing path. The majority, I believe, have always swung over the top - that's the way people swing a golf club when they're not given instruction.

You can "believe" what you want all you want, but there are some facts at play here, and the fact is that the vast majority of golfers slice the ball with a clubface that's square to closed.

GIVEN that fact, you don't fix that golfer's clubface angle at all. You fix his path, because that's a one-step fix. If you fix his face - which doesn't really need fixing - to eliminate the slice the golfer won't get his driver in the air and will pull everything well left of the target. THEN you have to fix his path again, and then you probably have to fix the face again.

Tell me, which of these patterns looks most reasonable given a golfer with a clubface square to the target at impact:

Pattern A:
1) Fix the path (golfer hits ball straighter)

Pattern B:
1) Fix the clubface (golfer hitting big pulls)
2) Fix the path (huge hooks)
3) Fix the clubface again (golfer hits ball straighter)

It's really that simple, and you've yet to illustrate your point in a way that makes anything but what I've said here the best conclusion.

[slicer2scratch]

iacas>

If option 1. were that easy that would certainly be the choice... However its not!
You have to change all those awful body positions that get the club outside and face closed to target/open to path.

Thats why it becomes very important WHY they get there...as the question states, yes the path is outside in ,,, but its not the root cause,,,, as manzella said they have no other choice but to swing outside in because the face at somepoint was overly open...

The debate is not where are they when they slice (outside path, face closed to target) ....its how they got there... you know how they got there...you can fix it... finding the UNDERLYING cause for things is what seperates good instructors from average..(imo)

The ball can go left if the path is outside in (if face is closed to path)... right>? we agree there.... so if thats true ..HOW IN THE HECK can a slice be caused by an outside path>? the face MUST be open to that path ....
P-E-R-I-O-D...
im wrong>?
I think not

[JetFan1983]

iacas>

You are wrong.

The club face is open to the path, but it is closed to the target line. Hence, the ball starting to the left of your target and then slicing off to the right. And when you hit a push draw, the club face is closed to the path, but open to the target line. Hence the ball starting right and then curving left. (for right-handed golfers)

[sean_miller]

You are wrong.

Is the OP wrong or does it just seem that way due to his reference to the path versus the final target line? The focus of the thread is the root cause (not sure why this hasn't been merged yet, when so many other thread get that treatment?!?) much like Wiliam's was. Whether he likes it or not, the accepted Sand Trap terminology is that target = final target which is not necessarily the initial target or the path. This sounds like a vocabulary issue more than a golf issue.

[Williamevanl]

I feel like this deserves it's own thread. Plus I've got the popcorn out :) I think slicer2scratch and I have created a books worth of material in the past 48 hours and I'm interested to see others opinions on this.

[Shanks A Million]

...P-E-R-I-O-D...

You are wrong, but not in your facts, in your analysis. The face is not open to the target, so trying to close it is fruitless. Humans have amazing hand/eye coordination, and our ability to square the face is quite good. The reason we slice is that we come over the top, and therefore the face is now only open

relative to the path . Many slicers, in fact, have their face closed to the target. It's path, path, path, path. Fixing the face is rarely ever required. Very few people fail to square the face up with their target line. Get a slicer to square his face, and you now have a pull. Get him to fix the path, and you have a straight shot.

[iacas]

If option 1. were that easy that would certainly be the choice... However its not!

Says you. I've taught people, and I've seen people be taught. Path is the easiest solution.

You have to change all those awful body positions that get the club outside and face closed to target/open to path.

Many of the habitual slicers I've seen will hit their first draw in ten swings or less. At our recent school in Phoenix we saw - after our first round of individual instruction, approximately 10 balls that even

faded the rest of the day. The information we have and the way we convey it to people - I've told this to Dave - often feels like it's a cheat code.

Thats why it becomes very important WHY they get there...

No, it's not. Nobody cares "why" they got there - they're there, and that's what you have to work with.

as the question states, yes the path is outside in ,,, but its not the root cause,,,, as manzella said they have no other choice but to swing outside in because the face at somepoint was overly open...

At some point... but not now. What do I care what they were doing a month, year, or decade ago?

The debate is not where are they when they slice (outside path, face closed to target) ....its how they got there... you know how they got there...you can fix it... finding the UNDERLYING cause for things is what seperates good instructors from average..(imo)

You don't seem to get it... a good instructor fixes what the guy is doing right now, he doesn't fix "how he got there."

The ball can go left if the path is outside in (if face is closed to path)... right>? we agree there.... so if thats true ..HOW IN THE HECK can a slice be caused by an outside path>? the face MUST be open to that path ....

Why do you keep saying that? Of course a slice is caused by a face that's open to the path. That's assumed to be true, so why are you still talking about it?

90%+ of golfers slice with a face that's relatively square to the target. Thus, you fix the swing path to be squarer. John Doe comes to you. He's a righty and hits a ball that starts up the left side of the fairway and then slices into the right rough. What do we know about this guy, right now , and what's the course of action to fix him? If you say clubface angle, there's no point in continuing this discussion because I fear you simply won't get it.

You are wrong, but not in your facts, in your analysis. The face is not open to the target, so trying to close it is fruitless. Humans have amazing hand/eye coordination, and our ability to square the face is quite good. The reason we slice is that we come over the top, and therefore the face is now only open

We will work on clubface with people but we do it at P4 and we do it near impact by controlling the rate of closure. Occasionally if the grip is a problem we tweak that. It doesn't happen very often, because as you say we're pretty good about getting the clubface back to where it needs to be.

[Shanks A Million]

We will work on clubface with people but we do it at P4 and we do it near impact by controlling the rate of closure. Occasionally if the grip is a problem we tweak that. It doesn't happen very often, because as you say we're pretty good about getting the clubface back to where it needs to be.

Yes, that's a good point. I at one point set up with my face closed, and all I could do was hook it. A friend helped me, and I ended up hitting nothing but straight pushes. I was compensating by coming under plane. But like you say, these are really more of problems in setup and alignment, which are so common. Even tour pros work on alignment and ball position regularly.

[tristanhilton85]

Path is the easiest solution... like most 90s shooters, I slice the ball regularly and it is from coming over the top. When I'm at the range I do a three ball drill to help me swing from the inside and all of a sudden my slice is gone and I start hitting the ball either straight or with a draw... the face angle stays the same, path is the difference.

[slicer2scratch]

1."Says you. I've taught people, and I've seen people be taught. Path is the easiest solution."

As I have taught people and seen people be taught and watched teachers teach...MANY WORLD class instructors as well...
Path is not the easiest solution...Its a solution , you can fix path first...but not the easiest.



2".Many of the habitual slicers I've seen will hit their first draw in ten swings or less. At our recent school in Phoenix we saw - after our first round of individual instruction, approximately 10 balls that even faded the rest of the day. The information we have and the way we convey it to people - I've told this to Dave - often feels like it's a cheat code."


COOL. are there any results of this? trackman data you tube vids that show what happened>?
Id love to learn from it.


3".No, it's not. Nobody cares "why" they got there - they're there, and that's what you have to work with."

If there getting ott to avoid an open face push that would start right and go right then it does matter because you address the cause not the effect.



4."Why do you keep saying that? Of course a slice is caused by a face that's open to the path. That's assumed to be true, so why are you still talking about it?"

Simply put then path alone cannot make the ball go right or slice but face can...wether you want to agree with that or not that is FACT.....

5".90%+ of golfers slice with a face that's relatively square to the target. Thus, you fix the swing path to be squarer."


and that same 90 percent are ott because there trying to comensate for there open face...you cant just change path and not face(with a slicers body positions) as the whole club is orientated as one....
IF you have path 0...and face 2 degrees open ball go right.....they start swinging ott 5 degrees outside in (moving the whole club orientation) and now the face is 3 degrees closed... so a total of 5 degrees both ways...Now if you change path you will move the face back to open ...

As someone said ....
Your going to change the path but not the face angle relative to the path>?