My driver fitting (The_Pharaoh)

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Zeph

In your event, you might benefit from a more lofted driver. The alternative is to change the AoA, but that would mean a swing change. Tee height and position can also play a role here. Teeing it too far back or too low can give you a lower launch angle and in effect less distance.

I am already teeing the ball very far forward and hitting up on the ball (off my big toe according to my playing partners). I play a pull-fade so this might explain the high spin rate. Teeing it higher might be an option as I've noticed good players tee the ball very high these days. The other thing I've noticed is that one of my most common mishits is hitting the ball low on the clubface. That tells me I'm hitting too up on the ball. I've also read that in order to reduce spin, it is recommended to hit the ball off the top of the clubface. Is that true or a myth?

[kevin.chan]

BTW .... for a chelsea fan it might not be the brightiest idea to use your avator in Madrid [img]http://files.thesandtrap.com /emoticons/g1_wacko.gif[/img]

LoL!

[sparko]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Then either you swing faster than you think, or you have been personally exempted from the laws of physics.

not if its windy lol ,i do live in iceland but in all honesty i got measured at 95mph so maybe i do rip it a bit more out on the course, that does sound like its probably the case either way the v2 regular was spot on for me personally :)

Originally Posted by Zeph

How accurate are these charts?

The average swing speed on the LPGA Tour is 94 mph, ball speed at 139 with a 1,47 smash factor and optimal launch angle at 14º. The problem with you saying you carry 230-250 with a 95 mph swing is that it doesn't fit. To carry 250 with optimal launch conditions you need closer to a 110 mph swing speed.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Well most golfers use a too stiff shaft and too little loft (it is an EGO thing). Besides that if you browse a few websites from the shafts manufactors you will notice that even if you know you should be using a Stiff shaft ....... there are so many different shafts, weight, flex, construction, flex point, etc. etc. etc ...... it is very hard to know which shaft is optimum ...... and it might well be you need a Regular high kickpoint shaft from A or a Stiff low kickpoint shaft from B or a high torque shaft from C. etc. etc. etc..... even without a tracking monitor you can optimise results by visiting some demo days, where you might be able to compare a lot of options.

Also most people (even Tour pro's) think they hit the ball in the upswing, but there are so many variables including dynamic loft etc...... that it might well be that coming in negative 1-2 degrees might feel as positive 1-2 degrees.

ALSO ...... I noticed you were writing about using the Pro V1 ...... not the longest ball out there, maybe it would be better for you to use the Pro V1x for a reduced spin of the driver....... don't worry about recommended swingspeeds for certain balls !

It must have been an ego thing for the club fitter as all I told him was I was hitting my Titleist 983E too high and hoped he could fit me for something that would bring my ball flight down! It appears he then decided to give me low loft, the toughest shaft and recommended me the Pro V1x (I mentioned Pro V1 in an earlier post but I actually use the Pro V1x ball). I did notice he was listening to me more than looking at the numbers at the time. I should have keep my mouth closed!

By the way, I just had a first session with the proper Trackman using Pro V1 balls and my clubhead speed was clocked at 102 MPH once I'd warmed up. You were right about the AofA, I was coming in at negative 1. No matter how far forward in my stance I placed the ball, I couldn't get a positive AofA. I think I got it to 0 once. I tried various clubs, shafts, lofts etc. other than my own, and still couldn't launch the ball at more than 11 degrees. Spin was also still too high. no matter what club I was using.

The guys at Virtual Range were great and I have a second session to come to try more clubs and really zero in on the driver for me. They are also going to give me a ball fitting...

[Zeph]

They say the V1 is softer than the V1x, but from some test I've seen, it had a higher spin rate. Also believe I've read that the V1x launches a bit higher than the V1.

-1º AoA is not bad, the difference from -1 and +1 is impossible to tell without a launch monitor.

How do you set the handle at address? You could perhaps set it a little less forward.

What spin rates where you getting?

How much loft did you try hitting?

How high do you tee the ball, and did you try teeing it higher?

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Zeph

They say the V1 is softer than the V1x, but from some test I've seen, it had a higher spin rate. Also believe I've read that the V1x launches a bit higher than the V1.

-1º AoA is not bad, the difference from -1 and +1 is impossible to tell without a launch monitor.

How do you set the handle at address? You could perhaps set it a little less forward.

What spin rates where you getting?

How much loft did you try hitting?

How high do you tee the ball, and did you try teeing it higher?

The Trackman guys are going to send me the full results soon...

I had the handle in line with the ball, except when I placed the ball OUTSIDE my left foot for a few shots to try and get a positive AofA. Unfo, this just made me cut across the ball even more than I usually do.

Spin rates: high 3000s, low 4000s on average.

Loft: 10.5 was the highest

Tee: half the ball above the top of the club. I didn't try teeing it higher than that

[Zeph]

SS: 102

AoA: -1

Spin: 4000

Launch angle: 11º

According to the charts, you need a 12.5-14º launch angle with 3000-3300 spin for the most distance. They also say that with a 105mph swing and -2º AoA, you need a 12º driver. With a +2º swing it's down to a 9.5º driver.

There may be other forces at work, but I'd think a 12º driver only would create more spin for you. Spin is a result of the difference between AoA and dynamic loft. Increasing the loft would increase the difference and in theory create more spin.

You could try a driver with more loft and perhaps a less spinny ball. If you can't get the AoA over on the positive side, you need more loft to launch it higher.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Zeph

SS: 102

AoA: -1

Spin: 4000

Launch angle: 11º

According to the charts, you need a 12.5-14º launch angle with 3000-3300 spin for the most distance. They also say that with a 105mph swing and -2º AoA, you need a 12º driver. With a +2º swing it's down to a 9.5º driver.

There may be other forces at work, but I'd think a 12º driver only would create more spin for you. Spin is a result of the difference between AoA and dynamic loft. Increasing the loft would increase the difference and in theory create more spin.

You could try a driver with more loft and perhaps a less spinny ball. If you can't get the AoA over on the positive side, you need more loft to launch it higher.

Thanks Zeph! Your comments and advice are greatly appreciated.

Does having an out to in swingpath make a big difference as I play a fade? It's the pull, rather than the push kind... The closed clubface relative to the target line may be a factor. The spin varied quite a bit ie. now and again I got it down to 2,500 but the very next ball would be 6,500 or so. The one thing that wouldn't change was the launch angle, it was always around 11 degrees. I couldn't change that for the life of me no matter what club I hit.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Does having an out to in swingpath make a big difference as I play a fade? It's the pull, rather than the push kind... The closed clubface relative to the target line may be a factor.

A shut clubface would deloft the club more yes, which would launch the ball lower. Opening the clubface would obviously add more loft, but you'd also have to aim more left. Depends how much out-in it is and how closed the clubface is.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Zeph

A shut clubface would deloft the club more yes, which would launch the ball lower. Opening the clubface would obviously add more loft, but you'd also have to aim more left. Depends how much out-in it is and how closed the clubface is.

I also noticed I needed to aim further left the more I moved the ball left in my stance. I really don't want to have to aim any further left than I'm doing now. I think I'd rather go with a swing change to try and attack the ball more from the inside.

[Zeph]

That makes sense. The farther ahead in the swing you hit the ball, the more the club will be travelling out-in, creating more sidespin. Post the results of the fitting when you get them. How much the club moves out-in is useful to know.

[The_Pharaoh]

OK here goes, I need a swing change not a club change! Here are the averages of the 4-5 balls I hit with each club (Pro V1 ball):

The first set of numbers are with my current club (Titleist D2 907 8.5 S), the second with a Callaway FTiz 10 S and the third a PING i15 Pro Force Tour-S 9.5:

Swing speed (MPH) 97.6, 98, 100.7

AofA 0.6, -0.7, -1.7

club path -2.4, -5-5, -6.2

Vertical Swing Plane 52.7, 51.4, 50.7

Horizontal Swing Plane -1.9, -6.2, -7.1

Dynamic Loft 14.8, 15.1, 14.2

Face Angle 2.4, -2.9, -2.0

Ball Speed 144.8, 145.4, 146.4

Smash Factor 1.48, 1.48, 1.45

Vertical Angle 12.8, 12.4, 12.2

Horizontal Angle 1.5, -2.9, -2.6

Spin rate 3525, 3448, 3034

Spin Axis 12.2, 5.9, 9.8

Carry 225.7 yards, 230.1 yards, 230.6 yards

Total 246 yards, 250 yards, 255.6 yards

Landing Angle 38.5, 39.1, 35.3

NOTE: I aimed square with my club, but then reverted to my familiar fade for the other two clubs. I also hit other clubs but the results weren't as good as the Callaway and PING above, although I did increase my swing speed as the fitting went on up to a maximum of 102.7 MPH.

All comments welcome no matter how much they hurt!

[Zeph]

I like tables.

Club	907 D2 8.5º	FTiz 10º	i15 9.5º
Swing speed (mph)	97.6	98	100.7	With a swing speed of 100 mph, you should be able to carry around 240-250 yards
Angle of Attack	0.6	-0.7	-1.7	Your AoA is not too bad, pretty much around the bottom of the swing path
Club Path	-2.4	-5.5	-6.2	There is your over the top stuff, hard to hit a draw, but a fade works
Vertical Swing Plane	52.6	51.4	50.7	Consistent, it varies with the height of the player, club length etc. Tour pro average is 48º
Horizontal Swing Plane	-1.9	-6.2	-7.1	Pretty much the same value as club path
Dynamic Loft	14.8	15.1	14.2	A result of AoA, static loft and the amount of bend in the shaft (typicall around +2º)
Face Angle	2.4	-2.9	-2.0	Negative number is shut clubface, positive is open. With your out-in swingpath, it is natural that you close the clubface a bit to hit it straighter
Ball Speed	144.8	145.4	146.4	Tells us the ideal launch angle is 14º and spin rate is 3300-3550
Smash Factor	1.48	1.48	1.45	Pretty solid
Vertical Launch Angle	12.8	12.4	12.2	Ideally you probably want this to be a degree or two higher
Horizontal Launch Angle	1.5	-2.9	-2.6	Always outside of your swing path, meaning you fade it
Spin Rate	3525	3448	3034	In the exact area where you want it to be.
Spin Axis	12.2	5.9	9.8	Positive numbers means the ball will fade
Carry	225	230	230	Not maximum, you can probably get another 10-20 yards out of it
Total	246	250	255	Not much to talk about
Landing angle	38.5	39.1	35.3	Tour average is 39º, you want it below 40º with the driver

So, what does this tell us? I wonder why you haven't tried a more lofted driver yet. Don't they have any, or is the ego getting in the way?  It was what people suggested in the first replies to your thread. Unless you plan to make a swing change to where your AoA is +2º, you're going to have to try some more lofted drivers. Your current launch angle is 1-2º too low, so a 11-12º driver would maybe fix that problem. I have read and seen different charts on this subject. Some say 11º launch angle is optimal with a 144 mph ball speed, some say 13º. There are probably other factors taking place as well. So my best tip would be to try a more lofted driver and see what happens. If the spin rate gets too high, try a different ball.

The spin axis also kills a bit distance, but I don't know by how much.

[iacas]

If you could keep the AoA you had with your club and not go -2.3 degrees down from that, the third driver looks like a good fit for you, and even the second is a better fit than yours.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Zeph

So, what does this tell us? I wonder why you haven't tried a more lofted driver yet. Don't they have any, or is the ego getting in the way?  It was what people suggested in the first replies to your thread. Unless you plan to make a swing change to where your AoA is +2º, you're going to have to try some more lofted drivers. Your current launch angle is 1-2º too low, so a 11-12º driver would maybe fix that problem. I have read and seen different charts on this subject. Some say 11º launch angle is optimal with a 144 mph ball speed, some say 13º. There are probably other factors taking place as well. So my best tip would be to try a more lofted driver and see what happens. If the spin rate gets too high, try a different ball.

The spin axis also kills a bit distance, but I don't know by how much.

Great analysis Zeph!

I have no ego when it comes to driving fitting, I just want to hit it as far as possible! This is just the first part of the fitting, part 2 is tomorrow. We basically went around the store (this was an indoor analysis) picking clubs off the shelves to try. Will get to the higher lofted drivers tomorrow. Perhaps a higher lofted driver with the Pro V1x ball might do the trick.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

If you could keep the AoA you had with your club and not go -2.3 degrees down from that, the third driver looks like a good fit for you, and even the second is a better fit than yours.

The reason I had positive AoA with my driver was because I was lined up more square to the target, however with the other two drivers I changed to my normal alignment (left hand side of the fairway!). I think being more square to the target allowed me to hit up more on the ball, however it sent the shot far too far to the right i.e. I was 25-26 yards right of the target. With the second driver (Callaway) I was 5 yards left of the target on average and with the third driver I was 5 yards right of the target on average. That's how I usually play as I hit a lot of fairways with my fade.

When I tried placing the ball well left in my stance I gained very little AoA but a lot of extra slice. I think the swing change is to aim further right so as to hit the ball more from the inside and then find a way to get it to draw back to target or at least go straight and not slice off the planet.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I like tables.

Club

907 D2 8.5º

FTiz 10º

i15 9.5º

Swing speed (mph)

97.6

98

100.7

With a swing speed of 100 mph, you should be able to carry around 240-250 yards

Angle of Attack

0.6

-0.7

-1.7

Your AoA is not too bad, pretty much around the bottom of the swing path

Club Path

-2.4

-5.5

-6.2

There is your over the top stuff, hard to hit a draw, but a fade works

Vertical Swing Plane

52.6

51.4

50.7

Consistent, it varies with the height of the player, club length etc. Tour pro average is 48º

Horizontal Swing Plane

-1.9

-6.2

-7.1

Pretty much the same value as club path

Dynamic Loft

14.8

15.1

14.2

A result of AoA, static loft and the amount of bend in the shaft (typicall around +2º)

Face Angle

2.4

-2.9

-2.0

Negative number is shut clubface, positive is open. With your out-in swingpath, it is natural that you close the clubface a bit to hit it straighter

Ball Speed

144.8

145.4

146.4

Tells us the ideal launch angle is 14º and spin rate is 3300-3550

Smash Factor

1.48

1.48

1.45

Pretty solid

Vertical Launch Angle

12.8

12.4

12.2

Ideally you probably want this to be a degree or two higher

Horizontal Launch Angle

1.5

-2.9

-2.6

Always outside of your swing path, meaning you fade it

Spin Rate

3525

3448

3034

In the exact area where you want it to be.

Spin Axis

12.2

5.9

9.8

Positive numbers means the ball will fade

Carry

225

230

230

Not maximum, you can probably get another 10-20 yards out of it

Total

246

250

255

Not much to talk about

Landing angle

38.5

39.1

35.3

Tour average is 39º, you want it below 40º with the driver

So, what does this tell us? I wonder why you haven't tried a more lofted driver yet. Don't they have any, or is the ego getting in the way?  It was what people suggested in the first replies to your thread. Unless you plan to make a swing change to where your AoA is +2º, you're going to have to try some more lofted drivers. Your current launch angle is 1-2º too low, so a 11-12º driver would maybe fix that problem. I have read and seen different charts on this subject. Some say 11º launch angle is optimal with a 144 mph ball speed, some say 13º. There are probably other factors taking place as well. So my best tip would be to try a more lofted driver and see what happens. If the spin rate gets too high, try a different ball.

The spin axis also kills a bit distance, but I don't know by how much.

Session 2 today. I tried drivers with more loft but hit them way too high and the spin rate went over 4,000. I also upped my swing speed to 105-106 MPH (it helped having played a round before going to the fitting as this time I was fully warmed up) and ball speed to 152-153 MPH. I was unable to hit the ball decently trying to achieve a positive AoA so just hit it with my normal swing so was in the -1 to -2 range. Will post full results when I get them...

Ball fitting: Pro V1 is the keeper, Pro V1x was too spinny as were all the other balls I tried.

[proguy747]

P..  I used to have similar numbers as you.    # that 907d2 head spins a ton...     Buy yourself a 10.5 driver with a kalli 70s. I guanrantee you will hit the ball farther and more solid..   I believe you should be around 14 luanch and spin numbers around 2500-2600 if you do not play in windy conditions or 2800-3000 for windy golf...      More spin will resist the affects of the wind...