Ball falls off the tee after a missed stroke

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Rules doesn't say you have to lose distance.

This discussion has become moot, let's agree to disagree.

Well, R27-1 is called stroke & distance because a player invoking that Rule loses both one stroke as penalty AND distance, eg. when loosing his ball or hitting his ball OB.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Well, R27-1 is called stroke & distance because a player invoking that Rule loses both one stroke as penalty AND distance, eg. when loosing his ball or hitting his ball OB.

True, but it does not prohibit you from taking an unplayable lie on the back of the teeing ground and place the ball on the front of the teeing ground. The rule never says you have to lose distance to invoke the rule.

[zeg]

Why do you insist on arguing this?  It is obvious from the wording of the rule and from the intent of the rule and in the spirit of the game (don't say you don't care about the spirit of the game - many decisions are based on that).  I'm done with it unless someone brings up another valid point.

Rule 28 is the wrong one in this case, since 27-1 says specifically that the player is deemed to have played under stroke and distance if he plays from as near as possible to the previous location. Under 20-5, that is anywhere on the teeing ground in this case. While you contend (perhaps correctly) that that is to avoid someone claiming they were proceeding otherwise, the word "deem" is pretty consistently held to be a strong one in the rules of golf. If the rules deem a fact to be true, that's the end of it as far as I know. Also, other than a few things such as declaring a provisional, the rules are also usually very specific about when a player must specify what actions he's taking. In general, your actions speak for themselves, and you don't have to know what you're doing. For example, if you're taking a drop, you'd be well advised to mark the point of reference and demonstrate that your drop was legal, but if you do not do this (for whatever reason), as long as your drop was actually compliant with the rule, you are as a point of fact acting correctly. Your intention is irrelevant. [quote name="Ignorant" url="/forum/thread/46058/ball-falls-off-the-tee-after-a-missed-stroke/36#post_599466"]

Well.... how do you lose distance if you do not move your ball backwards...?

[/quote] You don't have to move distance, under 20-5, the teeing ground is defined to essentially be treated as the same location.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Why do you insist on arguing this?  It is obvious from the wording of the rule and from the intent of the rule and in the spirit of the game (don't say you don't care about the spirit of the game - many decisions are based on that).  I'm done with it unless someone brings up another valid point.

Rule 28 is the wrong one in this case, since 27-1 says specifically that the player is deemed to have played under stroke and distance if he plays from as near as possible to the previous location. Under 20-5, that is anywhere on the teeing ground in this case. While you contend (perhaps correctly) that that is to avoid someone claiming they were proceeding otherwise, the word "deem" is pretty consistently held to be a strong one in the rules of golf. If the rules deem a fact to be true, that's the end of it as far as I know.

Also, other than a few things such as declaring a provisional, the rules are also usually very specific about when a player must specify what actions he's taking. In general, your actions speak for themselves, and you don't have to know what you're doing. For example, if you're taking a drop, you'd be well advised to mark the point of reference and demonstrate that your drop was legal, but if you do not do this (for whatever reason), as long as your drop was actually compliant with the rule, you are as a point of fact acting correctly. Your intention is irrelevant.

This depends on the Rule to be invoked. Once a player has hit his ball into a water hazard and prepares to drop a ball acc. to R26-1b behind the hazard nobody will question his acts. On the other hand, if he picks up his ball from the rough without saying anything he is deemed to follow R27-1 and not e.g. R28b or c. This is because a player must declare his ball unplayable BEFORE he can take actions on that Rule (again, there are Decisions supporting this but I'm too lazy to dig them up).

So, in essence, sometimes it is very clear what a player is doing and sometimes it is not. In latter case it may very well be that the case will be judged against the player.

All in all, this case has nothing to do with R28 but everything to do with R27-1. R18-2a and R20-5 as well as Definitions. It is interesting to see how the concept of Rules is so differently pictured amongst us but IMO it is a good example how the Rules could be much more clearly written.

[zeg]

This is because a player must declare his ball unplayable BEFORE he can take actions on that Rule

You may be right, and if so, that is an example where the rules specifically require a player to make a declaration. However, he only needs to do this if he wants to take advantage of the options available to him specifically under that rule. If, for example, he were to lift his ball from a water hazard and, without saying a word, drop it further from the pin on the line between its last crossing into the hazard and the pin, then play, his actions would speak for themselves. That his ball was in the hazard was a question of fact. For stroke and distance, though, you may always employ it, so in fact no other rule needs to even mention it as an option since 27-1 gives it to you under any circumstances. I think there's a valid question about procedure that Fourputt is raising, but ultimately I don't share his opinion that anyone is engaging in shenanigans here. If the ball already lies in a legal position on the teeing ground, I don't see any reason why a player should have to go through the motion of picking it up, setting it somewhere else, and then putting it back where he lifted it from. The spirit of the game is to advance the ball by strokes from the teeing ground to the cup, so I only think there's a "spirit foul" (aka equity problem) if, by circumventing a procedure, you somehow obtain a different result than the procedure would give. That's not what's going on here... By the way, with respect to the earlier point about not losing distance, there are examples where stroke and distance is better than just stroke. For example, if you have a short chip from, say, 10 yards from the green and you hit it too hard and watch it roll 50 yards down a steep incline to a difficult lie at the bottom of a hill, stroke and distance will definitely improve your position. So it's decidedly not the case that the "distance" part must be a hindrance in every situation.

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Once a player has hit his ball into a water hazard and prepares to drop a ball acc. to R26-1b behind the hazard nobody will question his acts.

You'd think, but it happened to me. I was in a tournament once where I took a drop about 30 yards behind a water hazard and on the next tee one of my opponents said "You know that was an illegal drop back there. You have to drop within 2 club lengths of the hazard." I informed him that not only was I allowed to drop as far back as I wanted, but the "2 club lengths" rule didn't even apply since it was not a lateral hazard. He seemed doubtful and I'm sure he looked it up later. Then the kicker is, on the 18th hole that same guy finds his tee shot a couple yards OB and proceeds to drop it with a stroke penalty. I didn't want to further embarass him by calling him on it - which I really regret in hindsight. Anyway, point is you never know with people.... [/hijack]

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

(rationality behind the bolded sentence I cannot understand. Pls. see my post #36)

Sorry, Rick, teeing is not equal to placing. Furthermore, the wording in the Definition of Ball in play should not be too hard to understand: 'ball is in play as soon as'. If we reverse this, it means 'a ball is out of play until'. I do not understand what is so difficult here: A teed ball is not in play until the player has made a stroke at it. I did not anticipate that you would be arguing about this.

Let us take another approach: Can you find in the Rules a justification how a 'ball in play' may continue being in play while lifted and teed/re-teed? Bear in mind that a ball that is lifted is never in play.

How do you explain d.11-3/1 then?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Why do you insist on arguing this?  It is obvious from the wording of the rule and from the intent of the rule and in the spirit of the game (don't say you don't care about the spirit of the game - many decisions are based on that).  I'm done with it unless someone brings up another valid point.

Rule 28 is the wrong one in this case, since 27-1 says specifically that the player is deemed to have played under stroke and distance if he plays from as near as possible to the previous location. Under 20-5, that is anywhere on the teeing ground in this case. While you contend (perhaps correctly) that that is to avoid someone claiming they were proceeding otherwise, the word "deem" is pretty consistently held to be a strong one in the rules of golf. If the rules deem a fact to be true, that's the end of it as far as I know.

Also, other than a few things such as declaring a provisional, the rules are also usually very specific about when a player must specify what actions he's taking. In general, your actions speak for themselves, and you don't have to know what you're doing. For example, if you're taking a drop, you'd be well advised to mark the point of reference and demonstrate that your drop was legal, but if you do not do this (for whatever reason), as long as your drop was actually compliant with the rule, you are as a point of fact acting correctly. Your intention is irrelevant.

In the case of the player bumping his ball in play off the tee, then playing as it lies, the only "deeming" you can do is to "deem" that he is playing from a wrong place.  He hasn't indicated that he is doing anything else.  I don't see how you can possibly make a reasonable argument for anything else.  It's a continuation of the same process, to wit, attempting to get off the damn tee.  If he does make an effort to indicate that he is heading in another direction, then I'm with you, but not when he keeps going in a continuous sequence.

Swing and miss, bump, swing.  Nothing in that sequence says anything at all about taking stroke and distance.  I don't care one wit that the ball is still on the teeing ground.  He has made no effort to replace the ball - he has made no effort to indicate that he has changed the sequence of events.

[zeg]

He hasn't indicated that he is doing anything else.  I don't see how you can possibly make a reasonable argument for anything else.  It's a continuation of the same process, to wit, attempting to get off the damn tee.  If he does make an effort to indicate that he is heading in another direction, then I'm with you, but not when he keeps going in a continuous sequence.

Ok, well, I think that's the crux of the disagreement: I just don't see where the requirement that the player makes his intention clear (or even knows that what he is doing is a proper procedure) if, even by accident, he could have picked his ball up and set it in the same position. As long as he takes the penalty for bumping and the penalty (stroke and distance) for not replacing the ball, I think he has paid his dues. This just seems consistent with the 18-2 decisions above, where the reasoning doesn't ask whether the player intended to be taking stroke and distance when he pushed his teed ball a little lower or when he placed his ball back on the tee, it simply says that by making a stroke from the teeing ground, he was taking stroke and distance. In the end, though, did we decide this distinction even matters? I've sort of lost track of whether we're arguing semantics or whether we actually disagree on the score...

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

How do you explain d.11-3/1 then?

What is there to explain? I don't follow you.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

What is there to explain? I don't follow you.

You say a teed ball is not in play.  That decision says it is.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You say a teed ball is not in play.  That decision says it is.

You must be joking? That Decision says the ball is in play after the player has made a stroke at it, just like i tis said in the Definition. A ball on a tee may be in play but a teed ball is not in play until etc. C'mon, be serious!

[Zeph]

How is it possible to misunderstand this decision?

The ball is NOT IN PLAY when it is first tee'd up.

The ball is IN PLAY after the player made a stroke and missed the ball.

The ball is IN PLAY when the player bumps the ball off the tee.

11-3/1 Stroke Misses Ball; Ball Then Accidentally Knocked Off Tee

Q. A player teed his ball within the teeing ground. He made a stroke at the ball but missed it. He addressed the ball again and accidentally knocked it off the tee. What is the ruling?

A. When the player made a stroke at the ball, it was in play and Rule 11-3 no longer applied. When the ball in play moved after it was addressed, the player incurred a penalty stroke and was obliged to replace the ball (Rule 18-2b).

The rules says nothing about a tee'd ball being in play or not, it's never mentioned. They say that the ball is in play after you made a stroke, which you do even if you miss the ball. Forget the whole "tee'd ball is in play or not in play", it's irrelevant to the situation if the ball is on a tee or not. There are other factors that decide if it's in play or not.

[zeg]

Forget the whole "tee'd ball is in play or not in play", it's irrelevant to the situation if the ball is on a tee or not. There are other factors that decide if it's in play or not.

Exactly. A ball being teed or not has nothing to do with its being in play. On the teeing ground, making a stroke at a ball that's not in play puts that ball in play. It's not that teeing it took it out of play, it's that you normally tee a ball before there's any ball in play. There's really no contradiction here.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

Forget the whole "tee'd ball is in play or not in play", it's irrelevant to the situation if the ball is on a tee or not. There are other factors that decide if it's in play or not.

Exactly. A ball being teed or not has nothing to do with its being in play.

On the teeing ground, making a stroke at a ball that's not in play puts that ball in play. It's not that teeing it took it out of play, it's that you normally tee a ball before there's any ball in play. There's really no contradiction here.

It is not a question whether a ball is on a tee or not, it is about what is a ball's status before it has been hit on the teeing ground for the first time. A ball that is in play cannot be hit for the first time, it has already been hit at least once (see Definitions). This means that whenever a ball is on the teeing ground to be hit for the first time it cannot be a ball in play. Thus, a ball in play falling of the tee as in Dec 11-3/1 is still in play until something described in the Definitions is done to put it out of play.  In the case at hand nothing such has been done so the ball continues to be in play.

Ball in play

A ball is “in play” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of
bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted , whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.

Status of the ball in this case can be seen very relevant as it is a solid thing pointing out that player cannot be absolved from playing from wrong place just by deciding aftwerwards he has teed a new ball.

[Zeph]

So you finally agree that the ball is in play all the time? Good.

Where in the rules does it say that you can't claim a ball unplayable and take stroke and distance without actually moving the ball from where it lies?

Forget about the "deciding afterwards", let's assume he has thought this through and for some stupid reason decided to take stroke and distance. Where does the rules say this is not permitted? He is not required to inform the other players, but in the event that he just hits the ball from where it lies, it would be appropriate for him to suffer two penalty strokes for playing from the wrong place. But let's ignore that scenario and focus on the rules here. I can't find anywhere in the rules where it says that a ball can't place itself in the manner we're talking about. If you got some rule or decision that prohibits this, please share.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Zeph

So you finally agree that the ball is in play all the time? Good.

Huh? That's what I've been saying all the time and spent a considerable time in writing arguments for it to make you understand it....

Originally Posted by Zeph

Where in the rules does it say that you can't claim a ball unplayable and take stroke and distance without actually moving the ball from where it lies?

It is said quite clearly in R28:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is
dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

All of these options require the player to touch and lift his ball and drop/place it on another location. What you MAY do is use stroke and distance (so R27-1 instead of R28a) without moving your ball but that would be extremely stupid and nobody will ever do it.

Originally Posted by Zeph

Forget about the "deciding afterwards", let's assume he has thought this through and for some stupid reason decided to take stroke and distance. Where does the rules say this is not permitted? He is not required to inform the other players, but in the event that he just hits the ball from where it lies, it would be appropriate for him to suffer two penalty strokes for playing from the wrong place. But let's ignore that scenario and focus on the rules here. I can't find anywhere in the rules where it says that a ball can't place itself in the manner we're talking about. If you got some rule or decision that prohibits this, please share.

No, you cannot and for an obvious reason. In the Rules it is described how the player needs to proceed when he is taking stroke and distance as well as when the player wants to substitute his ball. Everything else than what is described in the procedures a player MUST follow is something that is not allowed. I will not copy and paste all those sections from the Rules Book that say what needs to be done by the player.

The original question was the score for the player so far after he has driven off from the teeing ground and the answer IMO is 4. One can come to this conclusion in two ways, depending on the actions of the player.

1. The player says nothing and does not touch his ball before hitting it for the 2nd time. Stroke + playing from wrong place + stroke = 4.

2. The player informs after having bumbed his ball off the tee that he will play his ball where it lies and apply R27-1. At this point he does not have to return his ball onto the the tee but he is putting a new ball in play. This would be extremely weird but possible. Do note that without saying anything the player would be deemed to have played from a wrong place but saying he will invoke R27-1 takes the ball out of play and substitutes it with a new ball.

I hope we are done with this case.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Huh? That's what I've been saying all the time and spent a considerable time in writing arguments for it to make you understand it....

You brought the ball in play/not in play thing into the discussion.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

All of these options require the player to touch and lift his ball and drop/place it on another location. What you MAY do is use stroke and distance (so R27-1 instead of R28a) without moving your ball but that would be extremely stupid and nobody will ever do it.

Exactly, that's what we've been saying all the time. Thread over for my part.