draw vs fade - iron distance

[CalBoomer]

Originally Posted by iacas

Also incorrect ("also" in reference to your comment about drawing the driver in the other thread). If you're a pull-fader you've likely "released" the club or "rolled the wrists" more than the guy who plays a push-draw.

You can hit really, really big draws without "rolling the wrists" at all. In fact, that's the way we teach it...

I get what you're trying to say, Cal, but please understand that there are four kinds of shots (ignoring the ones that start "straight"):

push-draw

push-fade

pull-draw

pull-fade

The first two don't have much "rolling" and are hit with a clubface that has more loft than the last two, which have (relatively) more "rolling" of the wrists.

Sorry about the terminology here. I personally consider the pull-draws and pull-fades as mis-hits from an out-in swing path. The push-draw, straight, and push-fade hit with an in-out swing path are basically the same shot for someone at my skill level, which is why my target line is down the middle of the fairway. On any given shot, I might end up with any one of the three. Some days, I just get more of one than the other and so I just adjust my aim for that fact. When I try to adjust my club face at address, it only seems to aggravate the less good shots. Given how small a change in face angle it takes (maybe only a few degrees) to go from a fade to a draw, how do you teach people consistency?

[iacas]

Edit: The more I try to consider what you're saying, the more I think you're using terminology differently than the commonly accepted way. "Push" and "pull" refer to the body's alignment. In both a push-fade and a pull-fade, the ball has to start left of the target to be any good (since the ball's going to fade) - what changes is the body's alignment. In a pull-fade the player is aimed generally towards the target, and in the push-fade they're aimed WELL to the left of the target.

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

Sorry about the terminology here. I personally consider the pull-draws and pull-fades as mis-hits from an out-in swing path.

They're not mis-hits. Sam Snead and Paul Azinger did pretty well hitting pull-draws and pull-fades.

Also, the pull-draw isn't necessarily hit with an out-in swing path. It's physically impossible (assuming center contact) to hit a pull-draw with a path that's out-in relative to the clubface, of course... and most pull-drawers have a fairly square path because they only barely "pull" the ball and let the clubface angle draw the ball (i.e. 0˚ path, clubface -2˚, ball curves to about -4˚ or so).

Perhaps your terminology differs, but I've been consistent in how I've used the terms.

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

The push-draw, straight, and push-fade hit with an in-out swing path are basically the same shot for someone at my skill level, which is why my target line is down the middle of the fairway.

I don't know what you mean by that. How are they "the same shot"? You do realize that the "push" is relative to the body's alignment and not the target, right? A push-fade - to be any good - is still started left of the target (for a right-handed golfer).

I'm also not entirely sure you understand what makes the ball fly the way it does. Why did you say pull-draws are hit with an out-in path and push-fades are hit with an in-out path. Could you clarify that, please?

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

Given how small a change in face angle it takes (maybe only a few degrees) to go from a fade to a draw, how do you teach people consistency?

It's relatively simple. People swing at the ball far more consistently than you seem to believe... the better the golfer, the tighter the "shot cone," but the first step in helping any golfer is to give them a pattern, and depending on the golfer, it's not hard to do.

[Fatphil]

To me nothing is prettier than a well struck push draw...but that's just me.

Nothing is sillier than seeing some big dude on a saturday morning smack a 460cc driver down the left rough line, slice it back 40 yards to the far right side of the fairway, walk off the tee saying "man did I power fade that sucka!"

[saevel25]

I have to disagree, the power-fade to me is the prettiest shot, its a graceful shot, something to just watch. I mean a true power fade, my prefered driver shot.

[Zeph]

A power fade is pretty much a push-fade, which require the same in-out swingpath as the push-draw. Not to be confused with a pull-fade.

[ohiolefty]

Fish stories.

...

A draw and a fade, hit with the same sidespin, contact, trajectory etc. hit onto the same surface relative to the ballspin and flight, settle down the same.