5 degrees gaps in wedges ?

[max power]

I don't think balata balls were hard to get up in the air, especially considering how much they spun.  I could be wrong of course.

Originally Posted by Gerald

Well uhhh it is complicated at least ...... the old ball didn't went up in the air easy, and at the same time the center of gravity was higher in most clubs than it is today. Then the standard went to balls of the larger diameter and much discussion went on that they were going significant higher up in the air (I can remember this was being said by the low cappers in these days), maybe not so much in the USA as the american ball went form 1.66" to 1.68" but in Europe they went from 1.62" to 1.68" (yes still only a few mm, but a large impact).

So the battle begon how to regain the so much prefered lower trajectory (by the low cappers and pro's) and part of the answer was lower loft and at the same time shaft lengths increased a bit to help the Joe the average golfer to get a higher swingspeed to get their balls up in the air easier.......

Long story short I tend to agree the current strong lofts having to do more with marketing for distance than with the larger ball, but in all stronger lofts started in 1988 when the ball went p to 1.68"

I also feel that this is an ongoing process....... in 10 yrs the current strong lofts might be well about standard lofts.

Beside that the current golfball size is from two decades back, it is not likely to tell, but it might change........

[Gerald]

Quote:

I don't think balata balls were hard to get up in the air, especially considering how much they spun.  I could be wrong of course.

Still have about 50 of these old balata balls, they are actually in my practice bag .... all are cut of course !

I can remember my first dozen, I went through these in 18 holes ...... orso

The modern high spin balls, spin more and travel at least 10-15% further.

[ohiolefty]

The balata ball got up in the air to a fault. Also, it was terrible in the wind. But, it was fun inside of 50 yards...for about 3 shots...then you needed another one

[TourSpoon]

OK,

I guess I just see it as we are now making a 5 iron that is as long as a 4 iron with the same loft as a 4 iron, but we will call it a 5 iron. At least the pro sets still have pw that start at 47-48 degrees. I  must concur with Sean about how the shape and purpose of these tools have changed over the years.

[max power]

Still my understanding that balata balls spun as much or more than modern high spin balls.

Originally Posted by Gerald

Quote:

Still have about 50 of these old balata balls, they are actually in my practice bag .... all are cut of course !

I can remember my first dozen, I went through these in 18 holes ...... orso

The modern high spin balls, spin more and travel at least 10-15% further.

[WUTiger]

Gerald,

Going back to the wedges and distance question. As you noted, quite often 3i-6i are 3* apart, and 7i-PW are 4* apart. Also, the shaft lengths tend to be in half-inch increments up and down the set for the numbered irons.

(Note: in GI and Player's clubs, the 3* difference often does't kick in until the 3i-4i or 4i-5i gap; if you look at Golf Digest's What's In The Bag , the pros often have the lower irons bent to have 4* loft difference between all)

When you get to wedges, differences in shaft length often decrease. This goes both for stock wedges made for iron sets, and specialty wedges (Vokey, CG15, Jaws). Sometimes the differences are 1/4 inch or less.

Go to the wedge web sites and look under technical specs. It lists the standard shaft lengths, which the factory or a local clubfitter can vary. Club designer Ralph Maltby advises players to review shaft lengths when buying a mix of wedges.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Gerald,

Going back to the wedges and distance question. As you noted, quite often 3i-6i are 3* apart, and 7i-PW are 4* apart. Also, the shaft lengths tend to be in half-inch increments up and down the set for the numbered irons.

(Note: in GI and Player's clubs, the 3* difference often does't kick in until the 3i-4i or 4i-5i gap; if you look at Golf Digest's What's In The Bag, the pros often have the lower irons bent to have 4* loft difference between all)

When you get to wedges, differences in shaft length often decrease. This goes both for stock wedges made for iron sets, and specialty wedges (Vokey, CG15, Jaws). Sometimes the differences are 1/4 inch or less.

Go to the wedge web sites and look under technical specs. It lists the standard shaft lengths, which the factory or a local clubfitter can vary. Club designer Ralph Maltby advises players to review shaft lengths when buying a mix of wedges.

This 3* just baffles me.  If the pros are going 4 degrees and they are getting 2.5-3 yards on average per degree, then why are ams playing them at 3? The average ams only get 2-2.5 per degree and as you get into the lower irons they tend to bunch up and overlap between due to the lack of ball speed and trajectory.  I understand 3 between the 3 and 4 iron, because if you have the club head speed to actually hit a proper 3 iron then this spacing seems to work with the trajectories, but again the average am doesn't possess this.  I don't get it.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

This 3* just baffles me.  If the pros are going 4 degrees and they are getting 2.5-3 yards on average per degree, then why are ams playing them at 3? ...

Back in the late 1970s Ping perfected cavity-back irons. One early problem: the CBs got the ball up high, so high that the early Ping irons came in about 5 yds. short of conventional irons in distance. Solution: Ping strengthened the lofts by 2* so the CB irons would not lose distance compared to other irons.

Well and good until golfdom's marketing idiots got ahold of the idea. Suddenly, you ended up in an arms race to see who'se 7i would go the farthest. Two results of the distance race and ever-stronger lofts:

• The Gap Wedge, to fill the loft difference between the ever-stronger PW and the SW (which needs to maintain its loft to pop the ball out of the sand)
• The Hybrids. With the ever stronger iron lofts, long irons become even harder to hit. This greatly increases the demand for hybrids. As I mentioned in another thread, my MacGregor MTs (1973 model) had a 3i = 24*. In the latest Burner 2.0 irons, a 5i = 24*.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

(Note: in GI and Player's clubs, the 3* difference often does't kick in until the 3i-4i or 4i-5i gap; if you look at Golf Digest's What's In The Bag, the pros often have the lower irons bent to have 4* loft difference between all)

I personally thought that the pro's (not all) liked the 2 iron, so if they gap 4 degrees in 5i-4i and in 4i-3i ..... they will end up with a 3i that is actually a 2.5i

Quote:

This 3* just baffles me.  If the pros are going 4 degrees and they are getting 2.5-3 yards on average per degree, then why are ams playing them at 3? The average ams only get 2-2.5 per degree and as you get into the lower irons they tend to bunch up and overlap between due to the lack of ball speed and trajectory.  I understand 3 between the 3 and 4 iron, because if you have the club head speed to actually hit a proper 3 iron then this spacing seems to work with the trajectories, but again the average am doesn't possess this.  I don't get it.

Yes I see this actually all the time at our driving range, there is just no difference with most ams betweeb hitting a 5-4-3 iron distancewise, of course I am not talking about the really good ballstrikers, but the average ams hits a 3i about the same distance as a 5i but with a lower trajectory and most are slicing the 3i anyway.

If I am reading your comment closely, you would advise to have 4 degrees gaps in the long irons aswell ?

[akabilk]

Loft degrees should really be considered in degree % difference

example:

Iron  1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / PW / GW / SW / LW
Loft 16*18*20*23*26*29*33*37*41* 45* /  50* /  56* / 60*

2* or 3* loft difference between a 1 to 4 iron % wise is greater than the difference between a 45* PW and a 50*GW.

For all intents and purposes of "difference", 4 wedges seem unnecessary and rather meaningless.

In the example above I'd use a Driver / 15*W / 18*W  /  23* H to replace the 4 iron or if your comfortable with the 4 iron, 4 / 6 / 8 / PW / SW, or Driver / 16*W / 3H / 5 / 7 / 9 / GW / LW. Then the loft % difference between clubs evens out a lot.

The loft difference between 4 wedges is meaningful in our minds, but % wise and out on the course?

It doesn't take long to develop the ability of opening or closing a club face a bit when playing it, so a complete set of 3-LW (or even 4-LW) irons is dead weight IMHO.

If the rules changed and 18 clubs were allowed, the market spin men would have us convinced we need the full set of clubs with 1* to 3* loft difference between them all !

You know, a couple of yards difference between clubs (with perfect shots). Lol, Lol.

[Gerald]

I know I started golf (I almost forgot .... uhhh) with half a set of even numbers 4W, 4i, 6i, 8i, PW, SW + Putter and I was really happy with a round of 45 at the par 34 course I played.

Gaps between two irons was about 15 meter, who cares.......

Opening/closing was never a sound option for me, but just choking down a bit was also a great way to hit different shots.

Actually golfing was less science and more fun in those days.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Gerald

I personally thought that the pro's (not all) liked the 2 iron, so if they gap 4 degrees in 5i-4i and in 4i-3i ..... they will end up with a 3i that is actually a 2.5i

Quote:

Yes I see this actually all the time at our driving range, there is just no difference with most ams betweeb hitting a 5-4-3 iron distancewise, of course I am not talking about the really good ballstrikers, but the average ams hits a 3i about the same distance as a 5i but with a lower trajectory and most are slicing the 3i anyway.

If I am reading your comment closely, you would advise to have 4 degrees gaps in the long irons aswell ?

What I am saying that for my 105 mph swing speed, that I have set my clubs up from (3-pw) 22-25-28-31-35-39-43-47 to 21-24-28-32-36-40-44-48 (I just dropped the 3i for a 20* 3h and a 18* 2h). I felt like the 4-5-6 irons were too close together at 3* which is almost 10 yards, and my higher irons were more like 12-13 yards apart. I strengthened the 3 and 4, left the 5 the same, and weakened the rest of the set by a degree (this was a loft set-up that I have used for 20 years or so) to cover more ground.  I would rather see my longer irons spread out more, than only have a 10 yard difference. Any slight mishit and you are hitting the same club distance wise.

Now, the reason that traditional lofts usually go by 4s and then get lower down by the 3/4i to about 3, and then to a 2 iron by 2 degrees, is that the extra length starts creating more club head speed. If you are beast enough to handle a 2 then it should only be 2 degrees stronger than your 3i and they should be about 12-15 yards apart. I have noticed that most modern OEMs put this kind of spacing all the way up to 6 iron now with players clubs holding the line to either 4 or 5 iron (although you are very astute to notice that those with the highest swing speeds usually play with irons that go by 4s starting at 4i).

I realize that I am probably splitting hairs on this one, but I don't see the benefit of a 3 degree separation for the average am between a 6 and 7 iron. My club guy told me that the OEMs do it to sell clubs because they have to offer lofts on the low end that people can still get into the air and that is why you see sets start at 23* and end at 46*.  They are squeezing both ends to offer short irons that are longer and long irons that you can get up in the air. Most ams are not going to pay attention to the fact that their 4 iron only gives them 7 more yards than their 5 iron. If they do then they have still bought the 4i as part of the set and then swap it with a 4h.