Tiger Faces "Failed Legacy"

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Many people are scumbags but that doesn't stop them from being great athletes, businessmen, politicians, presidents ect. ect.

Ty Cobb's baseball legacy hasn't been too tainted over the fact he was a flg flying KKK member and was rumored to have participated in multiple lynchings....

People tend to only remember the people they already disliked anyway as scumbags, and give all of the other guys a pass.

Brandon

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by BunkerBuster

1 woman people understand. 8 that we know of including porn stars, strippers and hookers? Give me a break. The guy is a scumbag.

You would be surprised at how many of your hero's, past or present are scumbag's....dont be naive.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

You would be surprised at how many of your hero's, past or present are scumbag's....dont be naive.

Because others have/had serious character flaws does not lessen the fact that Tiger's image was projected by his handlers, agents and himself as the ideal family man. He betrayed his fans, who believed that false image.

Personally, I am never surprised that certain "classes" of people (sports figures, celebrities, politicians) often turn out to be less than ideal people.  Their sense of entitlement allows them to think that they are above the rest of us, and whatever they choose to do is perfectly OK. Also, they pay fixers to take care of their problems. That works most of the time, but not all (Woods, Weiner, Edwards, Clinton, Bryant, Clemens, Armstrong, Lohan, etc, etc, etc).

[Elvisliveson]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Many people are scumbags but that doesn't stop them from being great athletes, businessmen, politicians, presidents ect. ect.

Ty Cobb's baseball legacy hasn't been too tainted over the fact he was a flg flying KKK member and was rumored to have participated in multiple lynchings....

WOW, that's just dead wrong about Cobb. He was an a-hole for sure, but there is absolutely no proof he was a member of the KKK, much less participated in lynchings. Cobb's family history as well as his own actions demonstrate the opposite was actually true. Cobb's father' was a state Senator who voted against a bill that would have prohibited white people's tax dollars going to fund black schools. Cobb himself established the TY Cobb Educational Foundation to benefit needy kids of Georgia, black or white. In fact, many black children benefited as Cobb intended. A 1952 Sporting News article details how Cobb said if a person is qualified to play a sport or hold a certain job, then he should not be denied by virtue of the color of his skin.

You have distorted Cobb's transgressions in the same manner (worse actually) as those you accused of doing to Tiger. By saying that Cobb was in the KKK and participated in lynchings is the equivalent of someone saying 50 years from now that Tiger went on rampage and raped all these white women he was with.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson

WOW, that's just dead wrong about Cobb. He was an a-hole for sure, but there is absolutely no proof he was a member of the KKK, much less participated in lynchings. Cobb's family history as well as his own actions demonstrate the opposite was actually true. Cobb's father' was a US Senator who voted against a bill that would have prohibited white people's tax dollars going to fund black schools. Cobb himself established the TY Cobb Educational Foundation to benefit needy kids of Georgia, black or white. In fact, many black children benefited as Cobb intended. A 1952 Sporting News article details how Cobb said if a person is qualified to play a sport or hold a certain job, then he should not be denied by virtue of the color of his skin.

You have distorted Cobb's transgressions in the same manner (worse actually) as those you accused of doing to Tiger. By saying that Cobb was in the KKK and participated in lynchings is the equivalent of someone saying 50 years from now that Tiger went on rampage and raped all these white women he was with.

I agree.  I haven't seen any evidence to support the claim of COBB being involved with the KKK which, is a pretty BOLD claim to make.

[Dartguy]

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson

WOW, that's just dead wrong about Cobb. He was an a-hole for sure, but there is absolutely no proof he was a member of the KKK, much less participated in lynchings. Cobb's family history as well as his own actions demonstrate the opposite was actually true. Cobb's father' was a state Senator who voted against a bill that would have prohibited white people's tax dollars going to fund black schools. Cobb himself established the TY Cobb Educational Foundation to benefit needy kids of Georgia, black or white. In fact, many black children benefited as Cobb intended. A 1952 Sporting News article details how Cobb said if a person is qualified to play a sport or hold a certain job, then he should not be denied by virtue of the color of his skin.

You have distorted Cobb's transgressions in the same manner (worse actually) as those you accused of doing to Tiger. By saying that Cobb was in the KKK and participated in lynchings is the equivalent of someone saying 50 years from now that Tiger went on rampage and raped all these white women he was with.

Thanks for posting this.  I was bugged enough to retort, but you handled it.  Well said.

[BunkerBuster]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Many people are scumbags but that doesn't stop them from being great athletes, businessmen, politicians, presidents ect. ect.

Ty Cobb's baseball legacy hasn't been too tainted over the fact he was a flg flying KKK member and was rumored to have participated in multiple lynchings....

KKK? Lynchings? That is total BS and I dare you to site your proof.

[BunkerBuster]

I have no hero's since I don't need any. I'd rather Tiger had been a drunk like John Daly instead of a womanizing "I need my privacy" phony.

[zeg]

History will remember Woods's transgressions as a footnote.  The shock of the sudden revelations will be lessened, and after a decade or two, when it's both not fresh in people's minds and when a lot more people "grew up" after all the press, the lurid details won't be as significant a part of the public consciousness.  I don't think any but the immediate generation of golf fans will be as caught up in the details, nor feel as "betrayed" by actions.

From the perspective of sports history, I think the only risk is that he's remembered as another golfer who could have unambiguously been the best ever, but had to settle for the best of his generation.  That's not a failure, IMO.

It's a bit silly, too, because it's sort of like what's being discussed in the Rory thread about whether people are too quick to tag him the "Next Tiger."  There's certainly more evidence for Woods having (or having had) a good shot at breaking Nicklaus's record, but there's just no predicting exceptional events like that.  If Woods never does get back on the winning train (still a big "if," in my opinion), I think the memory of the huge expectations will fade pretty quickly and he'd be remembered, quite fairly, as the best of an era.

[BunkerBuster]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Tiger cheated on his wife, he didn't kill anyone, engage in a high speed chase while driving a white Explorer, rob a bank or blow up a building.  It's news now because Tiger was/is an icon and the media enjoys "exposing" such people to the public because it makes them money.  Babe Ruth was a drunk and womanizer, but 50 years later he's placed on a pedestal and everyone cried foul when Barry Bonds broke his record along with Aarons.  Chamberlin claims to have slept with over 20,000 women but is mostly remembered for being one of the greatest centers in basketball.   Most sports legends of the past weren't angels, but today, most are remembered for their accomplishments within their sport, not their failures as a human being.

Whether Tiger surpasses Jacks Major record or not, he'll be remembered as one of the best golfers to ever play and who shattered the racial stereotype of golf being a sport played and won only by whites.

People who bring up a persons race in relation to their accomplishments are the true racists. Also, you are mistaken to say, and rather narrow minded and just plain wrong, if you think Woods broke the color barrier in golf. There have been plenty of minorities in golf long before your hero Woods.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by BunkerBuster

I have no hero's since I don't need any. I'd rather Tiger had been a drunk like John Daly instead of a womanizing "I need my privacy" phony.

So, people are only capable of having one fault at a time?  What do you know about Daly's love life?

Originally Posted by BunkerBuster

People who bring up a persons race in relation to their accomplishments are the true racists. Also, you are mistaken to say, and rather narrow minded and just plain wrong, if you think Woods broke the color barrier in golf. There have been plenty of minorities in golf long before your hero Woods.

Did he say he broke the color barrier?  Maybe you should re-read what he wrote.  To ignore the racial and social impact of Woods' impact on golf is ignoring half of his legacy.  Do people not remember Arnold Palmer's social impact on golf as much as his on-course successes?

Lastly, your implication that newtogolf is the "true racist" is pretty ridiculous.

Brandon

[BunkerBuster]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

97 Professional Wins

71 wins on the PGA Tour - 3rd all time, 2 behind Jack who has 73 and Tiger SHOULD pass that.

14 majors - 2nd all time

Won 3 majors in one year

Career Slam

38 win on the European Tour - 3rd all time (not a ful time member on that tour)

Dominated Amateur Golf

Dominted NCAA Golf

Money Leader 9 times and single handedly raised tournament purses for all PGA Tour tournaments with his presence

Vardon Trophy winner 8 times

Rookie of the Year Winner

PGA Player of the year, 10 times

PGA TOUR player of the year, 10 times

Byron Nelson Award winner 9 times

Failed Legacy?  Are you kidding me????????

What's with people and their convenient short memories these days???

Woods is not a failure. His legacy however has been derailed and overshadowed by his actions on and off the course. Now his physical problems have come into play. Had he not been an idiot and played around, kept his mind on the game and not poontang, he may have already broken Jacks record before his knee gave out. Winning another major at 35 with health issues and a mind not 100% into the game will be a miracle. If he does then more power to him.

But he let the little head do the thinking for the big head and now he may have pissed his legacy away.

[newtogolf]

How many black golfers were doing international ad campaigns for Nike and AT&T;, had their own Gatorade label and video game before Tiger Woods?  I didn't say he was the only black golfer, nor the first, but he's certainly the most famous and the one most people recognize.

Originally Posted by BunkerBuster

People who bring up a persons race in relation to their accomplishments are the true racists. Also, you are mistaken to say, and rather narrow minded and just plain wrong, if you think Woods broke the color barrier in golf. There have been plenty of minorities in golf long before your hero Woods.

[BunkerBuster]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

So, people are only capable of having one fault at a time?  What do you know about Daly's love life?

Did he say he broke the color barrier?  Maybe you should re-read what he wrote.  To ignore the racial and social impact of Woods' impact on golf is ignoring half of his legacy.  Do people not remember Arnold Palmer's social impact on golf as much as his on-course successes?

Lastly, your implication that newtogolf is the "true racist" is pretty ridiculous.

Brandon

When black and white makes no matter, then and only then can this country say it's color blind. If you say a person is great because of his race and he's made his mark in life because he's the first person of color to do this or that, then you are basing your opinions on his/her race. That makes you a racist. If we are going to be post racial then it's time to end the racial divide based on skin color. There is no difference between white or black.

[BunkerBuster]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

How many black golfers were doing international ad campaigns for Nike and AT&T;, had their own Gatorade label and video game before Tiger Woods?  I didn't say he was the only black golfer, nor the first, but he's certainly the most famous and the one most people recognize.

I've heard the flip side from people saying the only reason he got where he is, is because he's only 1/2 black. Some black folks call him all kinds of unkind names. I mean my God, I've heard comments that President Obama is not black enough. Drop the race card and get on with life is what I say.

[bplewis24]

I agree that if you view the subject of success solely through the prism of race, it serves as a handicap.  But when viewing things from a historical perspective, it does a disservice to future generations to ignore landmark events that have racial and social impacts.  The subject of Tiger's legacy is an exercise in historical perspective, so I believe it falls under the same guidelines.  The racial/social impact are enhancers of his legacy and not the sole focus of it.  Regardless of race, he was successful in golf and also very fallible in his off-course pursuits.

Brandon

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by BunkerBuster

Woods is not a failure. His legacy however has been derailed and overshadowed by his actions on and off the course. Now his physical problems have come into play. Had he not been an idiot and played around, kept his mind on the game and not poontang, he may have already broken Jacks record before his knee gave out. Winning another major at 35 with health issues and a mind not 100% into the game will be a miracle. If he does then more power to him.

But he let the little head do the thinking for the big head and now he may have pissed his legacy away.

The guy is 35 years old!  Phil Mickelson at 41 years of age (6 years older than Tiger) is still being picked as one of the favorites at almost every tournament he enters.  Jack won his final major at 46 (11 years older than Tiger is today).

There is still a long road ahead of him and taking a "snap shot" of today and basing his ENTIRE career (when it isn't even finished yet) on that snap shot is absurd....

[Harmonious]

Interesting comment from Lee Trevino on Feherty's show the other night.  He said that Tiger's swing action, with the resultant snapping of his front knee, will require him to completely alter his swing if he wants to continue to play. If he doesn't, Trevino suggested, he may never be able to play competatively again without re-injuring it over and over.