Club Declared "Out of Play" Prior to Start of Round

[mihi4]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

And I don't think that's been answered definitively. If it's legal, that would be strange and appear to be against the spirit of the rule (why is advice ok on the first tee but no other?) If illegal, than it's an example of where you *can* break a rule before the round has started. Or we need a clearer definition on when the round is started. Regardless, seems the rules need to clarify this scenario.  I know I'm nit picking, but we're always saying "The rulebook is big [and the Decisions are numerous] because it needs to cover every eventuality" - yet this does not seem to be covered.

There is a very clear definition on when a round is started in the decisions (decision 3/3) on randa.org:

Quote:

In all forms of stroke play other than foursomes, a competitor has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round.

and the end of a round is also clearly defined:

Quote:

In individual stroke play, the competitor’s stipulated round has ended when he has completed play of the final hole of that round

So until you make your first stroke on tee one, "you're not playing golf, yet".

That's understandable, because there has to be a clear point, where the rules start to take effect.

Everything you do before this point has no relevance to your round.

It's like taking a knife to the airport - as long as you're in front of the security check, it isn't illegal to have it - the security guards even don't recognize you. Once you enter the metal-detector, you're not allowed to have it with you anymore.

If you are talking to one of your playing partners (including "advice") on the first tee (before one making your first stroke) is nothing different then talking to him on the range.

Once you made your first stroke, everything changes, that's _exactly_ the point where all the rules come into effect (think "metal detector"). It even doesn't matter if you hit your ball (i.e. a whiff), because a "stroke" is clearly defined as

Quote:

the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball

So, everything you do before the first stroke doesn't matter, even declaring something "out-of-play" because you are not playing golf yet. The persons around you on the first tee are not your playing partners yet, they are just people standing around. You wouldn't tell some fellow walking by accidentially, "Oh, and by the way, I'm declaring my 3 iron out-of-play, because I have 15 clubs with me", would you? He isn't related to you golf round in any way - and that's the thing for all the people on the first tee before the first stroke.

Accordingly, everything you do on the 18th green after you holed out, doesn't matter to your score, either (i.e. testing the green).

greetings

michi

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

And I don't think that's been answered definitively. If it's legal, that would be strange and appear to be against the spirit of the rule (why is advice ok on the first tee but no other?) If illegal, than it's an example of where you *can* break a rule before the round has started. Or we need a clearer definition on when the round is started. Regardless, seems the rules need to clarify this scenario.  I know I'm nit picking, but we're always saying "The rulebook is big [and the Decisions are numerous] because it needs to cover every eventuality" - yet this does not seem to be covered.

First of all, I cannot understand how this thread has grown this long as all the ansers were given within first couple of posts. Amazing.

I always try to encourage people to learn the Rules and equally often tell them to start with the Definitions. Without understanding those it is impossible to understand the Rules. It seems to me that some people have missed the Definitions completely even though iacas and fourputt have patiently tried to bring the right concepts up.

To jshots I would say that there are Rules that apply prior to round and those are explicitly descibed, one example being R7-1. Those other Rules apply only during stipulated round which, as already have been pointed out numerous times, begins with player's first stroke at his ball.

As far as advice is concerned R8-1 says clearly

8-1.Advice
During a stipulated round , a player must not:

And from Definitions:

Stipulated Round
The “stipulated round’’ consists of playing the holes of the course in their correct sequence, unless otherwise authorised by the Committee.

Before you tee off you have not yet played anything so stipulated round begins when you hit your ball for the first time. Cannot be that hard to understand.

Btw, if giving advice before teeing off sounds strange to be allowed, what do you say about giving advice while play has been suspended? That is also allowed even between tee shots from a par3...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jshots

In the end though I really think there are a lot of things that are unclear, that could possibly make it legal to declare a club out of play on the first tee.

I'm not sure about that. Nothing seems to be unclear to anyone but yourself.

Originally Posted by jshots

Like we've discussed, when does play start, when do the rules of golf apply. To the best of my knowledge the rules don't say much about those two things and maybe we are just making some obvious (or not) assumptions, which is why I came up with the counter argument to the OP in the first place.

Look it up yourself.

3/3 Stipulated Round in Stroke Play

In all forms of stroke play other than foursomes, a competitor has begun his stipulated round when he makes his first stroke in that round. In foursomes stroke play, the side has begun its stipulated round when it makes its first stroke in that round.

In individual stroke play, the competitor's stipulated round has ended when he has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule, e.g., Rule 15-3b or Rule 20-7c ). In foursomes or four-ball stroke play, the stipulated round has ended when the side has completed play of the final hole of that round (including correction of an error under a Rule).

Originally Posted by jshots

Another question. Regardless of who is right here, do you think you should be able to declare a club out of play before the round has started on the first teebox? In my opinion you don't gain any unfair advantage in doing so, so I don't see why you shouldn't be able to.

No, you shouldn't. You should leave it in your locker.

Originally Posted by mihi4

There is a very clear definition on when a round is started in the decisions (decision 3/3) on randa.org:

Yes, as with virtually everything, the language and numbering between the R&A; and the USGA is virtually identical.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

First of all, I cannot understand how this thread has grown this long as all the ansers were given within first couple of posts. Amazing.

The first post, in fact! I was just asking people if my explanation was correct.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

It seems to me that some people have missed the Definitions completely even though iacas and fourputt have patiently tried to bring the right concepts up.

Indeed, a lot of questions can be answered by using the proper terms and knowing their definitions.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Before you tee off you have not yet played anything so stipulated round begins when you hit your ball for the first time. Cannot be that hard to understand.

"And... scene."

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by jshots

Another question. Regardless of who is right here, do you think you should be able to declare a club out of play before the round has started on the first teebox? In my opinion you don't gain any unfair advantage in doing so, so I don't see why you shouldn't be able to.

I think I may have posted my opinion on this already, but I'll repost since the question has now been directly asked.  I see no need for such a declaration.  If you're playing a casual round, do whatever you and your playing partners agree on.  If you're playing in a formal event such as a club tournament, count your clubs before you walk away from your car.  It takes less than 14 seconds unless you count very slowly.  If you can't be bothered to do that, you deserve whatever penalty you get.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jshots

Yeah to be honest I don't really care and almost gaurantee I will never run into this problem. In fact before even seeing this post I had read about this Q and A a while back and knew the USGAs answer, it comes up as a question on a rules quiz.

In the end though I really think there are a lot of things that are unclear, that could possibly make it legal to declare a club out of play on the first tee. Like we've discussed, when does play start, when do the rules of golf apply. To the best of my knowledge the rules don't say much about those two things and maybe we are just making some obvious (or not) assumptions, which is why I came up with the counter argument to the OP in the first place.

What is crystal clear is that a rule is in effect when you are at a point in the round which is covered by that rule.  Rule 26 (Water Hazards) has no import when your ball lies on the green, and Rule 18 (Ball at Rest Moved) has no import before you have put a ball in play on any hole.  Many rules only apply in certain situations and at specific times or locations during a round.  99% of the time it is simple logic.  You wouldn't look up Rule 27 (Lost Ball) if you ball was unrecoverable in an obstruction.   Decision 4-4c/1 states in no uncertain terms that you cannot declare a club out of play before the round begins.  The round obviously and logically begins when you put the ball in play with your first stroke of the stipulated round.  I really don't see how you can call that unclear.

Another question. Regardless of who is right here, do you think you should be able to declare a club out of play before the round has started on the first teebox? In my opinion you don't gain any unfair advantage in doing so, so I don't see why you shouldn't be able to.

No because the rules say you can't.  You should make a point of arriving at the starting point of your round with no more than 14 clubs.  This is perhaps one of the simplest rules in the game to follow.  There is no reason to change it.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

And I don't think that's [the question of giving advice on the first tee] been answered definitively...

First of all, I cannot understand how this thread has grown this long as all the ansers were given within first couple of posts. Amazing

While I agree with your sentiment, I find it unfortunate that you chose to quote me with your response, since I have never once addressed the original topic or questioned its resolution. I only seconded what I perceived as being a valid question from another poster regarding another question - that of advice on the first tee. Since that question involved the definition of when a round begins, and since that definition was also key to the original topic, I thought it was appropriate to discuss it in this thread.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Before you tee off you have not yet played anything so stipulated round begins when you hit your ball for the first time. Cannot be that hard to understand.

Btw, if giving advice before teeing off sounds strange to be allowed, what do you say about giving advice while play has been suspended? That is also allowed even between tee shots from a par3...

That definition is not hard for me to understand at all, nor is the Decision about giving advice during suspended play. But the fact remains that you can be standing on the teeing area of hole #1 with your ball teed up and be able to legally receive advice about playing your shot or the hole, yet that is not the case for holes #2-#18. I simply find that a bit inconsistent - or at least mildly interesting.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That definition is not hard for me to understand at all, nor is the Decision about giving advice during suspended play. But the fact remains that you can be standing on the teeing area of hole #1 with your ball teed up and be able to legally receive advice about playing your shot or the hole, yet that is not the case for holes #2-#18. I simply find that a bit inconsistent - or at least mildly interesting.

You can receive advice anytime during a round.  You cannot ask for it, nor can you give it, but if it is offered unsolicited, then the penalty goes to the giver, not the receiver.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That definition is not hard for me to understand at all, nor is the Decision about giving advice during suspended play. But the fact remains that you can be standing on the teeing area of hole #1 with your ball teed up and be able to legally receive advice about playing your shot or the hole, yet that is not the case for holes #2-#18. I simply find that a bit inconsistent - or at least mildly interesting.

Yes, which is what got me thinking of a counter argument to the OP. It's inconsistent that rules apply on the tee boxes for 2-18 but not number 1. Its inconsistent that you can declare your club out of play on tee boxes 2-18, but not number 1. That in my opinion makes the rule not well thought out.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You can receive advice anytime during a round.  You cannot ask for it, nor can you give it, but if it is offered unsolicited, then the penalty goes to the giver, not the receiver.

This still does not address asking for advice on hole number 1 tee box before you begin your round.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jshots

This still does not address asking for advice on hole number 1 tee box before you begin your round.

This does:

8-1/18  Player Who Has Not Yet Played Seeks Advice from Player Who Has Finished Round

Q. May a player about to start his round seek advice as to clubs used at various holes from a player who has just finished?

A. Yes. Rule 8-1 applies only during the play of a round.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This does:

I'm sorry, does that mean he can ask another player who is still playing or about to begin?

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by jshots

I'm sorry, does that mean he can ask another player who is still playing or about to begin?

Yes, he can, without penalty.  As Decision 8-1/18 states, Rule 8-1 only applies during the play of a round.  Decisions 2/2 and 3/3 define the precise starting point of that round.  As odd and incorrect as it may seem, there is absolutely no rule in existence which would penalize a player for giving or receiving advice prior to making a stroke on the first hole of the round.

A clearly defined starting point is essential otherwise a golf lesson that you take 24 hours before a round would be against the rules.  The USGA has chosen to define that starting point as the 1st stroke on the 1st hole.  If the USGA changed it's mind at some point in the future and defined the start of a stipulated round as the point at which a player initially sets foot on the teeing surface, then this discussion would take a completely different turn.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by jshots

I'm sorry, does that mean he can ask another player who is still playing or about to begin?

What are you, a defense lawyer?  Sheesh.  It means what it says.  Read what I posted! RULE 8-1 ONLY APPLIES DURING THE PLAY OF A STIPULATED ROUND .  It doesn't matter what is said, who says it, or why it's said until the player begins his round by playing his first stroke.  Do you want the rule itself?

8-1. Advice

During a stipulated round, a player must not:

(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner, or

(b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.

It doesn't say before a stipulated round, nor after a stipulated round, it says DURING a stipulated round.

[ochmude]

Listen, jshots, I completely understand how contrary to the spirit of the game it seems to actually be allowed to give or receive advice while standing on the first tee.  When Sean posted this;

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Can I give my opponent advice before we tee off? Anything more than a rules heads up, like "Dude, you're about to tee up in front of the markers with your 15th club."

my initial though was "Damn, good point. You got me on that one."  However, I then actually looked through the rules and decisions, and it turns out that you absolutely can do that.  It seems wrong, but it's allowed, at least it's currently allowed.  Perhaps this might be addressed in a future rules revision.

[newtogolf]

Wow, quite a long thread on something that's not that hard to comprehend thanks to Fourputt and others who provided text from the rule books.  Seems clear that before a round starts you can do anything you want as far as the Rules of Golf are concerned.  Once you hit your 1st tee shot all the rules apply and anything that was said or done prior to the round beginning doesn't matter.

Bottom Line:  If you're playing in a tournament, make sure you only have 14 clubs in your bag before you swing at your 1st tee shot.

Off topic question, if I start a round with 13 clubs in my bag can I in mid-round add a 14th as long as it belongs to me and is not borrowed from another golfer?

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by jshots

Yes, which is what got me thinking of a counter argument to the OP. It's inconsistent that rules apply on the tee boxes for 2-18 but not number 1. Its inconsistent that you can declare your club out of play on tee boxes 2-18, but not number 1. That in my opinion makes the rule not well thought out.

Not well thought out? Ok, what in your opinion would be the latest time before tee-off that you may ask for advice or give it without penalty? One minute? 10? 2 hours? 8 days? A year?

As you see, the time limit is extremely specific: latest time you can do that is just before you start your round. No other time limit would be justifiable.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

While I agree with your sentiment, I find it unfortunate that you chose to quote me with your response, since I have never once addressed the original topic or questioned its resolution. I only seconded what I perceived as being a valid question from another poster regarding another question - that of advice on the first tee. Since that question involved the definition of when a round begins, and since that definition was also key to the original topic, I thought it was appropriate to discuss it in this thread.

Sorry about that, there was no critisism towards you, it was just an appropriate place to step in as you presented a valid question.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

That definition is not hard for me to understand at all, nor is the Decision about giving advice during suspended play. But the fact remains that you can be standing on the teeing area of hole #1 with your ball teed up and be able to legally receive advice about playing your shot or the hole, yet that is not the case for holes #2-#18. I simply find that a bit inconsistent - or at least mildly interesting.

Agree, it is inconsistent, at least in our minds. The consistensy comes (once again) from the Definitions and key phrases are Stipulated Round and Play Suspended. Still, to me it sounds a bit strange that a player may ask any advice he wishes while play is suspended. But then again, nobody's obliged to give any advice... :-)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You can receive advice anytime during a round.  You cannot ask for it, nor can you give it, but if it is offered unsolicited, then the penalty goes to the giver, not the receiver.

Yep. Important point.

Originally Posted by jshots

Yes, which is what got me thinking of a counter argument to the OP. It's inconsistent that rules apply on the tee boxes for 2-18 but not number 1. Its inconsistent that you can declare your club out of play on tee boxes 2-18, but not number 1. That in my opinion makes the rule not well thought out.

You're wrong. Tees 2-18 are "during the stipulated round." Standing around on #1 tee before I've hit my ball is as much "during the stipulated round" as I am in the middle of a round sitting at home typing on my computer right now. Which is to say it's NOT during the round.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Off topic question, if I start a round with 13 clubs in my bag can I in mid-round add a 14th as long as it belongs to me and is not borrowed from another golfer?

Please read rule 4-4 for yourself.

4-4. Maximum of 14 Clubs

a. Selection and Addition of Clubs The player must not start a stipulated round with more than 14 clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round, except that if he started with fewer than 14 clubs, he may add any number, provided his total number does not exceed 14.

Might also want to read Decision 4-4a/1 (the last paragraph specifically).

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Agree, it is inconsistent, at least in our minds. The consistensy comes (once again) from the Definitions and key phrases are Stipulated Round and Play Suspended. Still, to me it sounds a bit strange that a player may ask any advice he wishes while play is suspended. But then again, nobody's obliged to give any advice... :-)

That doesn't strike me as strange. If a round is suspended until the following day, why shouldn't the player be able to ask his instructor, or his wife, or his buddy, for advice? Not only would enforcing the "no advice" rule overnight be impractical, it'd be unenforceable as who knows what a player would ask or say away from the golf course?

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

While I agree with your sentiment, I find it unfortunate that you chose to quote me with your response, since I have never once addressed the original topic or questioned its resolution. I only seconded what I perceived as being a valid question from another poster regarding another question - that of advice on the first tee. Since that question involved the definition of when a round begins, and since that definition was also key to the original topic, I thought it was appropriate to discuss it in this thread.

Final decision: it's really not. Start a new thread if there's more to discuss on the topic of "advice." This thread is about a club being declared out of play.

I'm not a fan of locking threads, but since post #1 answered the question and a few subsequent posts confirmed the reasoning was proper, I'm tempted to here.