Is there a master hand in a golf swing ?

[nevrino]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

I don't care if you accept what I say.  You can practice and play and think what you wish. If you are already a fairly good golfer, then you need not be on this site.  Just go out and play.

I'm open minded so i'm being on this site reading how to swing the club the most effecient way according to people who has actually done some research behind their statements.

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

The traditional methods today can not promise you anything but years of lessons, and save you a few strokes here and there.

Not true, and again you basing that statement on nothing. The people that take lessons improve rapidly if it's a good instructor and I bet some of the instructors here can show you some good examples of that.

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

I promise you, editorial you, the struggling golfer, another approach to the game, which has been all but tossed aside.  My comments are for those interested, struggling golfers, that have not found what works for them  Perhaps you have, I certainly have, and would not change a thing in my approach to the game.   It appears that the current crop of younger players do not appear to have an open mind, or curiosity, to go out a try something else.  If you don't have anything constructive to say, then, simply go about your business and refrain from your idiotic comments.

I think it's you who isn't open minded.You found your theories based on your good play and say they work for everyone. You obviously don't want a discussion, you are right and we are wrong.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

I don't care if you accept what I say.  You can practice and play and think what you wish. If you are already a fairly good golfer, then you need not be on this site.  Just go out and play.  My comments are for open minded people who are looking to get better quickly.  The traditional methods today can not promise you anything but years of lessons, and save you a few strokes here and there.

I promise you, editorial you, the struggling golfer, another approach to the game, which has been all but tossed aside.  My comments are for those interested, struggling golfers, that have not found what works for them  Perhaps you have, I certainly have, and would not change a thing in my approach to the game.   It appears that the current crop of younger players do not appear to have an open mind, or curiosity, to go out a try something else.

I don't care if my posts do not gain any "traction" and that is not why I post.  I post for open minded people who can't afford to see a pro for lessons.  You may believe that trying to emulate the pros is a good thing.  I could not disagree with you more.  These guys practice until the cows come home.  The average golfer needs a simpler approach.  If you don't get it, well, too bad for you.  I am happy you have the money, time and lots of pro lessons behind you.  Most of us don't have that luxury.

I accept your opinion, I just disagree. And you're accusing me of not being open minded while not being willing to debate your own theories.

I had a 20 handicap two years ago. I'm now approaching single figures and still improving steadily. I've done that with "modern" swing theories, a moderate amount of practice, and some but not a huge number of lessons. I may have been lucky to stumble upon good teachers (and I include in that a lot of free advice I've received through this site), because I've found it to be logical, easy to understand and simple (simple as in straight forward, not simple as in easy).

There's plenty of confusing information out there, lots of bad instruction and crack pot theories. But that doesn't make you right, it just makes them wrong.

It's not about emulation of the pros, and if that's all you're talking about (slavishly copying with no mind as to why) then I'd agree with you that it's the wrong approach. But that still doesn't mean that learning from the pros is wrong. Identifying key elements that nearly all good golfers do well, and using them to improve your own swing just seems so logical to me. How can you argue against that?

[sean_miller]

Other than clarifying whether it was the path or club face that had the most effect on the initial direction of the ball flight, there have been no advances in golf instruction in the past 40 years. There have been plenty of detours though. The guy who resurrected this old thread seems to be on one.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

You people are missing the point.  The average golfer will never be able to use the methods of the pros.  The average scores for the average golfer have not improved for the past several decades. I don't care what the pros do. Neither should you. My comments are based on personal experience. What are your opinions based on? Watching golf of TV?  What do you bring to the party? What wisdom can you share,that would make a difference to the struggling weekend golfer?  You people are good at making stupid comments, and I fear, not much more.  Grow up!

Prove it. Any of it. You're just saying things that are your "way out there" opinion without any proof at all. The pros are the best scorers, the best players in the world. Why shouldn't we swing like them? Not exactly like one of them, but "like" them, the things they have in common? Why? Because you said so? That's all you've offered so far.

Also, you're wrong about the average scores bit: http://thesandtrap.com/t/35971/what-the-usga-and-club-manufacturers-dont-want-you-to-know/0_100#post_463168 .

My comments are also based on experience, and I think I probably have more of it in two key areas: playing good golf, and teaching others to do the same.

Now a few quotes that pretty much peg a few other things:

Originally Posted by Mordan

I accept your opinion, I just disagree. And you're accusing me of not being open minded while not being willing to debate your own theories.

Originally Posted by Mordan

There's plenty of confusing information out there, lots of bad instruction and crack pot theories. But that doesn't make you right, it just makes them wrong.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

You people are missing the point.  The average golfer will never be able to use the methods of the pros.

This statement is false.  The problem is that the average golfer doesn't:

1.) Seek out the proper instruction.

2.) Reads rants like yours and then is confused and never improves.

From my vantage point the swing is made up of a few areas:

(1.) Proper Mechanics

(a) Feet,

(b.) Legs,

(c.) Hips,

(d.) Torso,

(e.) Shoulders,

(f.) Arms,

(g.) Wrist,

(h.) Hands

(2.) Proper Geometries

(a.) Setup,

(b.) Top of the Swing,

(c.) Impact,

(d.) Finish - or shortly after impact (both arms straight - maintaining a wedge)

(3.) The Pivot aka The Dance

(a.) Address

(b.) Backswing

(c.) Downswing

(d.) Finish

(4.) Feels

(a.) Pressure Point #1

(b.) Pressure Point #2

(c.) Pressure Point #3

(d.) Pressure Point #4

(e.) Pressure Point #5 (MORAD speak)

(5.) Sequencing

Bringing it all together

Of course you need to understand basic concepts like...

Stance / Alignment

Address Posture

Grip

Ball Position

Telling a guy that all he needs to do is lead with the left hand is bs.  Maybe if you are happy with being a middle handicapper.  But not for someone who wants to play their best.

[OCEANDJJACK]

Again, let me repeat myself.  My comments are from my own experience.  The average golfer, who does not have the money for lessons, would do well by reading my postings.  They will improve faster than yourself, without the need for excessive practice or expensive lessons.  You will be taking lessons for the rest of your life.  I don't need to take lessons.  I don't need to practice.  When you learn to swing the club, and I assure you that you don't, it will be like learning to ride a bicycle.  Once you get it, you get it.  I know that is hard for you to believe, but that has been my experience.

Your believe in the modern approach must have cost you a few bucks, right?  I read a few great books, understood their meaning, and now I can hold my own against any club player.  You have chose to take the more difficult and expensive, and time consuming path.  Believe me, golf is not that hard.  You have been duped, in my opinion, into thinking you need to continue to take lessons and practice.  If you learned how to really swing a club, all of the hard work would not have been necessary.  I bet, if you lay off over the winter, and come back to play in the spring, your game will be god awful.  I have no such problem.  My swing is the same if I practice or not.  It is a real golf swing.

[OCEANDJJACK]

There is more than one way to skin a cat.  There are many golf methods which work, but take lots, and lots, and lots of practice to master.  I am trying to tell anyone who will listen, golf is not that hard, if you step away from the nonsense they are marketing.  If you have to practice, and practice until the cows come home, don't you think there might be an easier way?  I have discovered for myself that there definitely is.  You people refuse to pay attention and listen.  If you follow my narrative, you might just discover what a real golf swing is.  It will not require hours of practice.  When you see how easy it is, you will agree with me, you have been duped.  By duped I mean, you let your wallet get thinner and thinner, worked your butt off over a long period of time, and still don't feel totally confident that you can perform the next time you go out and play.  You don't own your swing, I do!

[poser]

again you are a 9 handicap and the guys you are debating with are far superior to your game..... So what are you doing wrong let me guess you just can't putt right?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

Again, let me repeat myself.  My comments are from my own experience.  The average golfer, who does not have the money for lessons, would do well by reading my postings.  They will improve faster than yourself, without the need for excessive practice or expensive lessons.  You will be taking lessons for the rest of your life.  I don't need to take lessons.  I don't need to practice.  When you learn to swing the club, and I assure you that you don't, it will be like learning to ride a bicycle.  Once you get it, you get it.  I know that is hard for you to believe, but that has been my experience.

Your believe in the modern approach must have cost you a few bucks, right?  I read a few great books, understood their meaning, and now I can hold my own against any club player.  You have chose to take the more difficult and expensive, and time consuming path.  Believe me, golf is not that hard.  You have been duped, in my opinion, into thinking you need to continue to take lessons and practice.  If you learned how to really swing a club, all of the hard work would not have been necessary.  I bet, if you lay off over the winter, and come back to play in the spring, your game will be god awful.  I have no such problem.  My swing is the same if I practice or not.  It is a real golf swing.

You've obviously had a bad experience in the past and that seems to have coloured your opinion of all "modern" golf instruction.

I haven't spent much money at all, not even the cost of a new driver (spread over the last 18 months).

The great thing is that not only have I improved my swing, I've learnt about it at the same time and so if I never took another lesson I could get back to the point I am now by myself. And I'm confident I could even keep improving by myself. But at the moment I'm happy paying for instruction because I enjoy learning from people who have done the hard work for me and like sharing their knowledge.

You know the greatest pity? You're so busy spouting your swing theory that you're missing a chance to learn here. There's a lot of great information on this forum if you were willing to open your mind and take the time to read it.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

The average golfer, who does not have the money for lessons, would do well by reading my postings.

They will improve faster than yourself, without the need for excessive practice or expensive lessons.  You will be taking lessons for the rest of your life.

I don't need to take lessons.  I don't need to practice.  When you learn to swing the club, and I assure you that you don't, it will be like learning to ride a bicycle.  Once you get it, you get it.  I know that is hard for you to believe, but that has been my experience.

Your believe in the modern approach must have cost you a few bucks, right?

I read a few great books, understood their meaning, and now I can hold my own against any club player.

You have chose to take the more difficult and expensive, and time consuming path.  Believe me, golf is not that hard.  You have been duped, in my opinion, into thinking you need to continue to take lessons and practice.

If you learned how to really swing a club, all of the hard work would not have been necessary.  I bet, if you lay off over the winter, and come back to play in the spring, your game will be god awful.  I have no such problem.  My swing is the same if I practice or not.  It is a real golf swing.

Here are a few responses to your comments:

(1.)Taking an extended layoff and come back and play God awful:

I took ~ 10yrs off from the game.  I came back and regularly was an 7 to 8 handicap when I picked the game up again.  If I wanted to play at your level, maybe I should've taken 15 or 20yrs off?  I'm not sure?

(2.) When I finally learn to swing a club - and you assure me I don't know how to:

I picked the game up again as mentioned - caught the bug to really start playing last fall (2011).  Since, my handicap has dropped to a low 4.  If my scores continue to track the way that they have in recent days/weeks - I'll be a 3.xx by the next time the SCGA releases my next index.

You're right.  I don't know how to swing the golf club.

(3.) You've been duped into thinking you need to continue to practice and take lessons:

I enjoy practicing.  I enjoy playing.  I just enjoy swinging the golf club anywhere and everywhere.  So I'm not sure what is considered excessive practice?  I just enjoy the game.  Also, I take lessons because it is great to learn.  I enjoy learning new ideas and concepts.  I always want to learn.  You sound like someone who is happy that your index is a 9. That isn't me.  I want to get to scratch (or better).  So my journey is indeed much different than yours.  Good day Sir!

(4.) Expensive lessons...

You're right.  That $39.00 I spend every month for lessons is insane.  I should cancel my lessons and just learn to swing the club like you.  I sure would save a lot of money!!!

Originally Posted by OCEANDJJACK

There is more than one way to skin a cat.  There are many golf methods which work, but take lots, and lots, and lots of practice to master.  I am trying to tell anyone who will listen, golf is not that hard, if you step away from the nonsense they are marketing.  If you have to practice, and practice until the cows come home, don't you think there might be an easier way?  I have discovered for myself that there definitely is.  You people refuse to pay attention and listen.  If you follow my narrative, you might just discover what a real golf swing is.  It will not require hours of practice.  When you see how easy it is, you will agree with me, you have been duped.  By duped I mean, you let your wallet get thinner and thinner, worked your butt off over a long period of time, and still don't feel totally confident that you can perform the next time you go out and play.  You don't own your swing, I do!

(5.) I've been duped.  You own your swing:

I don't know how to say this other than with this response...

[OCEANDJJACK]

I am the type of guy who as two left feet and two right hands.  I am not athletic by any means.  I am not kid, soon to be 65 in January.  If I can play well, very well, consistently, without practice, and playing only 2 or 3 times a month, don't you think you should take more seriously what I have to say and share?  My point is that the address position, start of my backswing, and downswing, is so easy to duplicate, with great results, why not give it a try.  Maybe not if you are an accomplished golfer, but is you are struggling to break 100 or 90.  I don't believe I must offer up any proof.  The proof will be self evident, if you take the time to read my posts, and go out and try it for yourself.

There are two broad approaches to the swing.  There are the hitters,  yourself and the others here, and the swingers, me.  I swing the club, easily, gracefully, with amazing power and accuracy.  The real swing is easy to master, the hit, on the other hand is much more difficult.  The fact is, my posts explains how to swing the clubhead.  This is not published in any golf book that I know of.

Everyone here has made up their minds to dismiss my postings, without following the guidelines I have very accurately and descriptively presented.  Print out my posts, all of them, and go to the range.  Try to learn how to infuse life into the clubhead.  Feel the pulling action of the clubhead on your left arm.  I am sure you have never experienced this sensation.  It is not published in any golf books or journals.  It is the key to the pendulum swing model.  Ernest Jones provides a pencil sketch overview in his book.  I, on this post, elaborate how it is done, how to make it work for you.  You are missing the boat of you don't pay attention and give this a try.  Now I know that it feels like to deal with close minded individuals who want to belittle people who have a different perspective on the game.  No, I don't agree with the current way golf is taught.  No, I don't think golf should take years to learn.  I don't care if you have a different opinion, but before you judge, please give it a try.  What do you have to loose,  maybe 20 strokes!

[OCEANDJJACK]

Your response shows me that you have a long way to go before you grow up.  That is my response to you.

[LovinItAll]

If I can play well, very well, consistently, without practice, and playing only 2 or 3 times a month, don't you think you should take more seriously what I have to say and share?

What's your definition of 'very well'? You're a 9 HC, FCS! That's not 'very well' to the guys to which you're trying to make your point.                                                                                                                                                                  [quote]  I swing the club, easily, gracefully, with amazing power and accuracy.  [/quote] Again, 'amazing power and accuracy' has only gotten you to a 9? That's an indictment against everything you're preaching. I'm not sure what you're trying to do unless your goal is to be argumentative. There is no proof, not even in your internet pudding.

[OCEANDJJACK]

I don't believe the pros have anything to offer, that can be used by the average golfer.  If you are close to being a pro, then, follow the path that you think best.  I believe that if golf was made ease, that would put lots of people who teach golf out of business.  Golf is an industry.  There is not good reason for them to teach an easier, more straight forward approach to the game.  If I published what I am preaching, and you followed my instructions, there would be little reason for you to take lessons.  Lets get real about this.  Why should golf be considered the hardest game on the planet, when people were playing it for quite a long time successfully, before the golf industry was created?

The great players of the past, many of them, started out as caddies.  They learned to swing the club, without lessons.  They found their way by swinging the clubhead.  It was a weight at the end of a stick.  They learned by trial and error.  They learned how to swing the clubhead by keeping their head steady.  The sequence they discovered was hands, arms,  and shoulders.  Swinging from the shoulder joints, they remained steady over the ball, swinging as if in a barrel, and reversed the sequence, hands, arms, and shoulders.  This was the first golf swing.  Later they began experimenting with the legs and hips.  Each generation has tried to improve upon the first golf swing.  My point is that the novice golfer can learn to play the game, in an easier and more straight forward manner, by reading and studying my posts.  Fancy moves are not necessary to get the ball traveling long and straight.  I have discovered this for myself.  It is the way I play.  It is not hard, and I believe I could teach anyone, with interest, how to swing with great results.

[mdl]

My favorite crazy point is body rotation FOLLOWS.  If taken literally it would be physically impossible to get past something approximating P3.  If taken less literally, I guess it just means core rotation should go shoulders -> chest -> hips, with the driving force from the left arm?  I don't even have anything snarky to say to that.  Though to follow on the "pro's don't do it that way" vs. "we're not pros" debate (sounds fishily P57-esque), it's not just pros.  Take any marginally athletic person who's ever spent even a little time playing a stick/club/bat/racquet sport in his/her life, tell them to stay centered (ish) on the backswing and maintain their overall spine angle, and ask them to hit it solid.  Not a single one of them will do anything even vaguely resembling that sequence.

[OCEANDJJACK]

You are another idiot.  Grow up, and soon, I hope!

[OCEANDJJACK]

A smug remark from a shallow thinker, I would say.  No one got it before, maybe you will get it now.  Read my posts and try to comprehend what I am saying.  You do know how to ready?

[OCEANDJJACK]

I strongly doubt it.