leaning the hands forward?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

Leaning the hands forward, can it lead to the swing path feeling flat and way inside, is this normal?

to me it felt like i was almost spinning round me hips, if you get me?

It can, but you're likely doing some things to change the wrist conditions, and you're likely rolling the forearms/wrists more in the takeaway as well. In other words, pushing your handle forwards and up a little (you're perhaps overdoing it) can change the wrist conditions and joint rotation during the takeaway, but it doesn't have to.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Look.  If you want to "press" them an inch forward or so, that's fine.  Don't do this:

Notice there is almost no cup in the left wrist and the right arm is ramrod straight.  Do something like this instead with cup and a soft right arm:

Why not do that? if you want to hit a ball that's going to have the best chance of drawing, you push the handle forwards. If you want to hit the ball lower, you can push the handle forwards too.

Note that the grip itself will change the wrist conditions (palmar flexion - bowing, dorsiflexion - cupping). This guy's almost palmar flexed at setup without much forward shaft lean because his grip is so weak. As you'd expect, it leads to a very open clubface at P4.

[carpediem4300]

hmmm didnt figure about arm roll, good spot that

will check tonight at range, my video phone is rubbis but guess it could help to some degree

as far as im aware the shaft ends up point to the middle of my left leg, not as far outside as a few photos further up, probably closer to the photo at the bottom of Iacas's post

whilst i am searching for the a swing and routine that fits me, i dont want to incorporate to many flaws, i will always have some obviously, but so long as its repetative and works i guess it will do!

will report back on this thread tomorrow morning with a video, unless you want it in a seperate thread Iacas?

[ks8829]

By having a forward press you ensure that the bottom of the arc of your swing is just before the ball, thus you make solid contact.

[carpediem4300]

yeaahh, gave up with this haha, tried about 20 balls and just didnt feel as natural as it did the other night,.....then ym phone died so i couldnt video it

when back to the good old everything in line and swang nicely and got good contact, just got an issue of hitting fat every now and again, dont think im pushing my hips forward enough on the down swing, oh well, more practice :)

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Why not do that? if you want to hit a ball that's going to have the best chance of drawing, you push the handle forwards. If you want to hit the ball lower, you can push the handle forwards too.

It causes a setup and takeaway where either the arms and torso are out-of-sync or the torso and hips are out of sync.  If the shoulders are relatively square at address with the hands too far forward, the arms will have to be taken away quicker to get them back in sync with the torso.  It's just a more complicated way to swing.  At some point in the backswing, the left pectoral will need to be engaged to pull the left arm inward for leverage.  The great strikers I see engage it at address so there's less to do in the backswing.  I'm certainly not arguing wholesale against a forward press a la McIlroy.  I'm just saying that overdoing it taxes the athleticism and timing too much.  When 99% of people hear "forward press", they overdo it, in my experience.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

It causes a setup and takeaway where either the arms and torso are out-of-sync or the torso and hips are out of sync.  If the shoulders are relatively square at address with the hands too far forward, the arms will have to be taken away quicker to get them back in sync with the torso.  It's just a more complicated way to swing.

I disagree. It can cause issues but perhaps the golfer is out of sync the other way and thus it fixes things for them. We've had a number of students set up with the handle pushed well forward. Some will do it for drills, and some will play golf that way until they can work out some other things.

My point was that what may not work for you may work very well for someone else, and generally speaking, pushing the handle forwards is a "draw piece."

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

The great strikers I see engage it at address so there's less to do in the backswing.  I'm certainly not arguing wholesale against a forward press a la McIlroy.  I'm just saying that overdoing it taxes the athleticism and timing too much.  When 99% of people hear "forward press", they overdo it, in my experience.

I wouldn't go as high as 99%, but I think more people need to do this, not less. Again, it's a draw piece. Handle forward and up as opposed to lowering and back, which would be a fade piece.

Also your grip and wrist conditions throughout the backswing have a lot more to do with some of the pieces you mentioned than a static setup. I prefer a slight cupping in the left wrist at setup as well... depending on the shot, or the student, or the grip, or the particulars. There are plenty of times I'll employ a slightly bowed left wrist at setup.

FWIW the single biggest problem of pushing the hands forward at setup is that the golfer will tend to roll #3 (left arm rolling) in the takeaway too much and not employ enough #2 (left wrist cock), resulting in a clubhead that's low and under plane.

[motteler621]

Im of the belief you dont want the hands leading too much.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by motteler621

Im of the belief you dont want the hands leading too much.

At the risk of being pedantic, nobody should do anything "too much." The very use of the phrase "too much" indicates that you've gone beyond the proper amount. I won't tell someone to do something "too much" either! Ding ding!

Everyone has different tendencies and even among people with the same flaws, many will fix it in a different manner.

[CuppedTin]

Why on Earth would anyone want to press the hands forward? The hands will naturally hinge on their own so why try and manipulate the process only to add something else to an already complex swing...

Does a proper setup not already promote the hands forward enough as it is?

[Phil McGleno]

Do you ever hit a chip shot or a punch shot with the ball off your back foot? Are your hands ahead when you do so then?

And the answer to the next question: not always, no. As ICAS said it's a draw piece. I'll add this: how many PGA Tour pros hit the ball with the handle back? How many amateurs? Do you think it might help some (not all but some) amateurs to set the handle forward more at address so that they have a better chance to get there at impact? I know I do.

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Why on Earth would anyone want to press the hands forward? The hands will naturally hinge on their own so why try and manipulate the process only to add something else to an already complex swing...

Does a proper setup not already promote the hands forward enough as it is?

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Do you ever hit a chip shot or a punch shot with the ball off your back foot? Are your hands ahead when you do so then?

And the answer to the next question: not always, no. As ICAS said it's a draw piece. I'll add this: how many PGA Tour pros hit the ball with the handle back? How many amateurs? Do you think it might help some (not all but some) amateurs to set the handle forward more at address so that they have a better chance to get there at impact? I know I do.

But eventually you have to take the training wheels off the swing!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

But eventually you have to take the training wheels off the swing!

One man's training wheels is another man's essential component.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by iacas

One man's training wheels is another man's essential component.

Iacas,

I agree with both of you guys... I guess that I was just under the impression that a proper setup would naturally have the hands pressed forward .5" to 1" at address.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by iacas

At the risk of being pedantic, nobody should do anything "too much." The very use of the phrase "too much" indicates that you've gone beyond the proper amount. I won't tell someone to do something "too much" either! Ding ding!

Everyone has different tendencies and even among people with the same flaws, many will fix it in a different manner.

Well you just told someone to do something too much. You told the guy "bunkerputt" a few posts up that he was wrong when telling the guy to not do what is in this picture below. You told him he should do it because it would help him draw it and hit it low.

I consider that "too much". Just like this photo below of Tom Watson is too much

[iacas]

Originally Posted by motteler621

Well you just told someone to do something too much. You told the guy "bunkerputt" a few posts up that he was wrong when telling the guy to not do what is in this picture below. You told him he should do it because it would help him draw it and hit it low.

Aaron, you're reaching. I didn't say what you're claiming I said. Go ahead, read it all again. I'll wait. I was pushing bunkerputt to give reasons why "not" to do something that can, on occasion for some golfers or in certain situations, work quite well.

I'd paraphrase what I wrote but it's already about as simple as it gets. I never told him to "do" that let alone to do it "too much" and the word  w-r-o-n-g appears exactly twice right now: in your post above and right here where I've quoted your post.

Pushing the handle forward is not recommended at setup for most people. However, for some, it works quite well, and for some certain kinds of shots it works quite well.

And if forced to choose between the two setups Tom Watson shows as "NO" setups, I'll take the one on the left every time.

Snap.

[CuppedTin]

I actually tried leaning my hands forward about 2-3 inches at address... I was hitting my 3 iron consistently 250-260 yards and that includes about 30-50 yards of roll! It is a golf shot that I really enjoyed hitting, it never seemed to get more than 20 feet off the ground...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

I actually tried leaning my hands forward about 2-3 inches at address... I was hitting my 3 iron consistently 250-260 yards and that includes about 30-50 yards of roll! It is a golf shot that I really enjoyed hitting, it never seemed to get more than 20 feet off the ground...

Neat. I hope you managed to learn something in doing that. I suspect that if you were paying attention would have.

To be clear, I rarely put someone in a position where their hands are as far forward as the one image above. However, on some chip shots and some "escape from the trees" shots I will put my hands that far forward. Additionally, I can play the ball outside my back foot with a clubface wide open and take shallow divots with a ball that draws a lot to demonstrate some principles, and we've had the occasional student who has benefitted from pushing the handle WELL forward at setup.

All things remaining fairly equal, handle forward helps to encourage the ball to draw (by raising the handle, sending the path right) as well as to - obviously - de-loft the club.

My challenge to bunkerputt in asking "why not?" was to get him to give reasons. To explain his thinking. I might agree with him! I like reasons with explanations, even if they're short.

The caution with pushing the handle forward is that it can cause a change in the wrist conditions and can affect how the wrists load - both in terms of #2 and #3 power accumulators, most often: wrist cock/hinge and forearm rotation, particularly (go figure) during the early parts of the takeaway.

I should correct myself here too... we put people in this setup more often than you might think when we're working on the right forearm flying wedge. Too many people deliver the clubhead to the ball with the handle back so if we can have them hitting 9-to-3 style "long chips" with the handle pre-set forward and trying to "get back there" at impact, it works quite well.

Stock shot? Handle leaning a little forward. Slight cupping of the left wrist.

---

P.S. On the issue of "too much." The very words imply that something is wrong. That remains true. But in training someone to feel the right sensation we'll often, as instructors, have someone do something "too much" with our supervision or even in a practice swing. For example, if we want someone's head to stay centered, but it moves up and back a few inches in their real swings, we might have them make practice swings and make them move their head down and forwards A FOOT. That's WAY "too much" movement, but miracle of all miracles, when they swing, their head still moves back and up, but likely not quite as much.

This whole post is a long way of saying this: "too much" during a swing is one thing. "Too much" when training or doing drills is another thing. I like it a lot when people give tips, and I love discussing the golf swing... but let's keep in mind that sometimes different things work for different people, and give reasons why you dislike something or like something . Information is a big part of all of this. We want to understand the golf swing, too, not just be told "don't do that." Because if I ever do that for something non-obvious, I hope y'all will answer the same why I did: "why not?"

[bunkerputt]

Thanks Erik.  I'll take what you wrote and consider it.  Regarding my reasons and to address your comment:

Quote: Iacas

I was pushing bunkerputt to give reasons why "not" to do something that can, on occasion for some golfers or in certain situations, work quite well.

I'm talking about a stock shot here where you want repeatable simplicity, so disregarding changes to influence the movement of the ball.  I certainly agree that hands forward and high can tend to promote a draw as long as the ball is in a position on the ground to be struck late and from the inside, i.e. not too close and too far back.  I also think that it's a bit of a stretch to say something like "putting the hands forward at address gives the player a better chance of getting them forward at impact".  I've yet to see one person with an extreme forward press that doesn't cast the club to some degree.  Of course I'm not a teacher and only have a few years of experience looking at swings, so I'm open to objection here.  Just my experience.

IMO there should be some cupping of the lead wrist at the top of the backswing.  That has been argued in other threads, so deferring that question for now and assuming it's desired, with the hands pressed forward and a neutral grip, in order to get to a proper P4, the following has to be done, not necessarily in this order:

• Hips and shoulders turning, if arms and torso were in sync at address, turn the shoulders faster than the hips or stall the hips at the top so shoulders can catch up
• Arms moved across chest if out of sync
• Arms lifted
• Club orientation brought with hands from shut position to square

On the other hand, with the left arm tucked in, shoulders square, everything in sync with a slight cupping in the lead wrist at address:

• Hips and shoulders turning
• Arms only moving slightly across chest
• Arms lifted

I've swung both ways in my life, first with an extreme forward press, second with a tucked left arm and cupped wrist, hands pulled back.  With the forward press, I found that more than not, I struggled with a club plane too flat, approach too far from the inside, and flip and a block release to prevent the shut club face from pull-hooking.  I always fought a two-way miss.  With the hands back, the move to the top feels like a pure turn of the body combined with a pure lift of the arms.  On the way down the cup naturally flattens as the arms accelerate without fighting it with the forearms.  At impact hands are way forward.  90% of shots go straight with an imperceptibly slight fade.  10% or so with a slightly blocked low push-fade.  There are a lot of changes contributing to that including better body movement, so I certainly don't claim that having the hands back suddenly made me a one-miss ballstriker.  I'm just saying that for me, it was one of the key changes that made things fall into place.  I don't know how well I've done it here, but basically I'm arguing that a tucked left arm at address simplifies the movement P4.