Perhaps the most basic rule question ... out of bounds (unrecoverable)

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

This confuses me...

Ignorant is talking about the case where you don't want to be forced to play your first ball if found. You can't do that by "declaring it lost" (since there's no such thing), but you can effectively do the same thing by *not* declaring your next ball a provisional (i.e., simply saying nothing.)

Basically exactly what I said in post #11.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Ignorant is talking about the case where you don't want to be forced to play your first ball if found. You can't do that by "declaring it lost" (since there's no such thing), but you can effectively do the same thing by *not* declaring your next ball a provisional (i.e., simply saying nothing.)

Basically exactly what I said in post #11.

Rrriiiggghhhttttt... See the first time when you said it I didn't quite undestand what you meant so I skipped over it. The above post clarifies it though. Effectively it's a way to stop your opponent from making you play a really bad lie because your 'punishment' for not declaring a provisional is that you have the stroke + distance penalty.

Clever.

[sacm3bill]

In real life though, I can't imagine any scenario where someone would intentionally not declare the second ball a provisional. There's no way of knowing if it would be better to play the first ball if found, and not declaring a provisional removes that option.

[stricklerlee]

Yeah dude, you're getting it messed up. Simply put, if you hit a ball out of bounds(ie white stakes along the boundary of the hole), you must hit a second ball from where you hit that already lost ball. You don't get a mulligan. You're actually getting penalized for hitting a ball out of bounds and dropping another ball. That's two strokes already added to your score. Harsh penalty, but it makes sense. If you hit a ball into a hazard(ie red stakes, ponds, rivers, natural habitats), you can drop the ball within two club lengths from where the ball entered the hazard.

Hope that explained it best.

[CrunchEasy]

I am now more confused than ever about penalty strokes.

Scenario #1

Par 4

1st shot...tee shot goes in the water

2nd shot...tee up again and hit fairway

3rd shot...land on the green

4th shot...sink putt

Final Score 5  (I hit the ball 4 times and add 1 penalty stroke for water hazard)

Scenario #2

Par 4

1st shot...tee shot goes OB

2nd shot...tee up again and hit fairway

3rd shot...land on the green

4th shot....sink putt

Final Score 6 (I hit the ball 4 times and add 2 penalty strokes for OB)

This is correct yes?  Im not crazy right?  Feel free to flame away for my lack of mental prowess

[rustyredcab]

NO.

OB penalty is ONE stoke plus distance. So, when you tee it up again (distance) you simply add one stroke and you are hitting your third shot. Your third shot lands in the fairway in both scenarios above. Both scenarios result in a score of 5. "One out, two back on the tee, three in the fairway, four on the green, five in the hole." Nice playing if you can do it.

In scenario #1, you have other options in addition to teeing it up again because water has options and OB does not. Those option are determined by where you went into the water hazard and what kind of hazard it is (Red or Yellow stakes). Those additional options have been discussed and they may or may not be better than teeing it up again.

In scenario #2 you may elect to hit a provision in case your first ball turns out to be in bounds. If it is found in bounds, you can NOT use the provisional. In scenario #1, if you believe the ball is in bounds but might be in a hazard, you may NOT hit a provisional even though some of have a special "local" rule for some of these situations where we allow a provisional in order to speed up play. That has been discussed and panned in this thread. By rule, when you think your ball is in the hazard, and you re-tee, that second ball is in play and you lie three.

Best play of all: stay in bounds and out of the hazards. :)

[deasy55]

Both scores are a 5. OB is stroke and distance. Whoever told you it's a 2 shot penalty is incorrect. And in scenario #1, you didn't have to tee it up again if you didn't want to. You could have dropped down by the hazard by finding the point of entry .(the drop choices would be different depending on whether it is a red staked or yellow staked hazard)

Originally Posted by CrunchEasy

I am now more confused than ever about penalty strokes.

Scenario #1

Par 4

1st shot...tee shot goes in the water

2nd shot...tee up again and hit fairway

3rd shot...land on the green

4th shot...sink putt

Final Score 5  (I hit the ball 4 times and add 1 penalty stroke for water hazard)

Scenario #2

Par 4

1st shot...tee shot goes OB

2nd shot...tee up again and hit fairway

3rd shot...land on the green

4th shot....sink putt

Final Score 6 (I hit the ball 4 times and add 2 penalty strokes for OB)

This is correct yes?  Im not crazy right?  Feel free to flame away for my lack of mental prowess

[Ignorant]

It seems that the concept of 'stroke-and-distance' is somewhat unclear.

It means that you lose one stroke (that is the penalty stroke) AND the distance you might have gained. Thus you need to return to the original spot and play your 3rd shot from there (1st was your original stroke of which you lost the distance and had to return to that spot, and the 2nd one was the penalty shot).

Hope that helps.

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

5. If his original ball is found he MUST play the ball providing he's not played the provisional any closer to the hole and the provisional is no longer used.

Yeah, Mickleson had a course "helper" find his ball once after he told people to stop looking for it. Phil knew he was better off not finding the lost ball but the "helper" kept searching for him.. doh! I forget which tourney that was.

[CrunchEasy]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

It seems that the concept of 'stroke-and-distance' is somewhat unclear.

It means that you lose one stroke (that is the penalty stroke) AND the distance you might have gained. Thus you need to return to the original spot and play your 3rd shot from there (1st was your original stroke of which you lost the distance and had to return to that spot, and the 2nd one was the penalty shot).

Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by deasy55

Both scores are a 5. OB is stroke and distance. Whoever told you it's a 2 shot penalty is incorrect. And in scenario #1, you didn't have to tee it up again if you didn't want to. You could have dropped down by the hazard by finding the point of entry .(the drop choices would be different depending on whether it is a red staked or yellow staked hazard)

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

NO.

OB penalty is ONE stoke plus distance. So, when you tee it up again (distance) you simply add one stroke and you are hitting your third shot. Your third shot lands in the fairway in both scenarios above. Both scenarios result in a score of 5. "One out, two back on the tee, three in the fairway, four on the green, five in the hole." Nice playing if you can do it.

In scenario #1, you have other options in addition to teeing it up again because water has options and OB does not. Those option are determined by where you went into the water hazard and what kind of hazard it is (Red or Yellow stakes). Those additional options have been discussed and they may or may not be better than teeing it up again.

In scenario #2 you may elect to hit a provision in case your first ball turns out to be in bounds. If it is found in bounds, you can NOT use the provisional. In scenario #1, if you believe the ball is in bounds but might be in a hazard, you may NOT hit a provisional even though some of have a special "local" rule for some of these situations where we allow a provisional in order to speed up play. That has been discussed and panned in this thread. By rule, when you think your ball is in the hazard, and you re-tee, that second ball is in play and you lie three.

Best play of all: stay in bounds and out of the hazards. :)

Hey thanks for clearing that up for me guys.  Much appreciated. +rep  Makes perfect sense now.  Sorry to hijack the thread a bit too, my bad