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Joe2011

Ball marked and lifted without asking

14 posts in this topic

Hi,

What do you think/ the rules say?

My second shot lands 10 yards short of Green. My fellow competitor shots 2 yards ahead of my ball. His ball is directly on the line of my play.

Without asking me, he marks and lifts his ball.

I would have asked him to mark it if I thought it would interfere with my next shot.

Is he allowed to do this?

I am not sure if he did so so that he can replace the ball for "a better lie" or did so because he thought I might have hit his ball, or he did so just out of courtesy?

Thanks

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He's fine, as long as he reasonably believes his ball may assist or interfere with your play.  At 2 yards distant, I think he's on shaky ground---he's not allowed to lift it because, e.g., he thinks your divot may interfere with *his* play, only because he thinks it will interfere with yours.  (If a divot did land on his ball, he'd be entitled to clear it and recreate the lie to which he was entitled.)

In casual play, I'd probably ignore it, but it might be worth mentioning to him if he is likely to play in serious competitions.  At the least, he should be in the habit of explaining what he's doing so there is some record as to why he lifted his ball.

Quote:
22-1. Ball Assisting Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that a ball might assist any other player, he may:

a. Lift the ball if it is his ball, or
b. Have any other ball lifted.

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I may be wrong, but I believe he should have played his shot first. Two yards in front of your ball would have been more than adequate distance for him to make a golf swing. I'm looking for a more clear ruling right now though...good question.

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I'm pretty sure this covers it actually....
22-2. Ball Interfering with Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3 ). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21 ).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

Note: Except on the putting green, a player may not lift his ball solely because he considers that it might interfere with the play of another player. If a player lifts his ball without being asked to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke for a breach of Rule 18-2a , but there is no additional penalty under Rule 22 .

...Not to mention, if he cleaned the ball as well, I think it's another penalty stroke.

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Originally Posted by RyderJ

I'm pretty sure this covers it actually....

22-2. Ball Interfering with Play

Except when a ball is in motion, if a player considers that another ball might interfere with his play, he may have it lifted.

A ball lifted under this Rule must be replaced (see Rule 20-3). The ball must not be cleaned, unless it lies on the putting green (see Rule 21).

In stroke play, a player required to lift his ball may play first rather than lift the ball.

Note: Except on the putting green, a player may not lift his ball solely because he considers that it might interfere with the play of another player. If a player lifts his ball without being asked to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke for a breach of Rule 18-2a, but there is no additional penalty under Rule 22.

...Not to mention, if he cleaned the ball as well, I think it's another penalty stroke.


No additional penalty for cleaning his ball, see Rule 21.

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So, by reading this, and looking back on the previous ruling I posted...would his ball not have been declared an interference?

A ball on the putting green may be cleaned when lifted under Rule 16-1 b. Elsewhere, a ball may be cleaned when lifted, except when it has been lifted:

a. To determine if it is unfit for play (Rule 5-3 );
b. For identification (Rule 12-2 ), in which case it may be cleaned only to the extent necessary for identification; or
c. Because it is assisting or interfering with play (Rule 22 ).


Originally Posted by Ignorant

No additional penalty for cleaning his ball, see Rule 21.



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Originally Posted by Ignorant

No additional penalty for cleaning his ball, see Rule 21.

No. His ball was off the green. He's not allowed to clean his ball.

You need to read the rule.

You are saying that it would be OK to remove a clump of mud from his ball just because another player's ball was behind him. Where is the logic in that?

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We can't really let "logic" be our guide on all rulings. Does a guy who's ball is in 2mm of casual in the rough water get to clean his ball? What about a guy who's ball ends up in muddy divot in the middle of the fairway?

Quote:

No. His ball was off the green. He's not allowed to clean his ball.

You need to read the rule.

You are saying that it would be OK to remove a clump of mud from his ball just because another player's ball was behind him. Where is the logic in that?



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This is exactly what I had interpreted as well. However, the OP never mentioned whether or not the guy cleaned his ball after marking it, so I may have gotten a bit hasty there to begin with.

No. His ball was off the green. He's not allowed to clean his ball.

You need to read the rule.

You are saying that it would be OK to remove a clump of mud from his ball just because another player's ball was behind him. Where is the logic in that?



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Thanks everyone.

It was sort of a serious event amongst friends, because some prizes and points etc were at stake

Under wet conditions these days (this part of world), people seem to pick up their balls as they please, which makes me ask myself why did he do that????

In this particular case, I wasn't thinking his ball might "assist" my play. This is perfectly valid point considering his ball was indeed directly on the line of my next shot, and I could have used it to align myself. I never thought that

But he could have told me and others what he was going to do and why.

Depending on what he says, the action might have been different. e.g he could have made his shot first.

Anyway, it is nice to know what the rule says.

Thanks again

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Originally Posted by RyderJ

I'm pretty sure this covers it actually....

[...]

Note: Except on the putting green, a player may not lift his ball solely because he considers that it might interfere with the play of another player. If a player lifts his ball without being asked to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke for a breach of Rule 18-2a, but there is no additional penalty under Rule 22.

...Not to mention, if he cleaned the ball as well, I think it's another penalty stroke.


Oops, I guess I responded too quickly, this one is clearly correct.  If he thought it would assist you, then what I said was correct---but that is pretty unlikely.

Originally Posted by Shorty

No. His ball was off the green. He's not allowed to clean his ball.

You need to read the rule.

You are saying that it would be OK to remove a clump of mud from his ball just because another player's ball was behind him. Where is the logic in that?

Read the exception at the end of rule 21.  Ignorant is correct: in this case the guy should be penalized for breaching rule 22 by marking and lifting his ball due to possible  interference without being asked.  Under the exception, there is no further penalty from rule 21.  Had he legally lifted under rule 22, then yes, he'd get a penalty for cleaning it.

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Originally Posted by z

Read the exception at the end of rule 21.  Ignorant is correct: in this case the guy should be penalized for breaching rule 22 by marking and lifting his ball due to possible  interference without being asked.  Under the exception, there is no further penalty from rule 21.  Had he legally lifted under rule 22, then yes, he'd get a penalty for cleaning it.

Pretty sure that was what I said.

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Originally Posted by Shorty

Pretty sure that was what I said.


He said there was no "additional penalty" for cleaning his ball, and you told him to read the rule and pretty strongly implied he was incorrect.  So to my reading, you said exactly the opposite.  You're right that he's not *allowed* to clean it, but since there's no further penalty if he did, that's essentially moot.

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