Darrell Klassen

[drsagacity]

MVMac, you wrote, "~~I think "knuckles down" can be a useful feel but being concerned with the club face "closing" can send the clubhead low and LEFT. End up hitting pull cuts. If you mean closed to the path, that's fine, if you mean closed to the target, that could be an issue."

It's funny, I absolutely love DK's video where he talks about the issue of swinging, "low and left". He illustrates the move and says, in "golf instruction, it's referred to as being 'over the top', who cares what it's called, don't do it". Then he illustrates how to release the club correctly to create the correct swing path to the PowerPoint.

I am not sure why you are going back to my comment about curling the toe. That is an observation of what happens when you hammer down with your left hand. I am not sure what "closed to the target" even means (I do really) it's just irrelevant to any conversation in golf unless you think you can actually hit a "straight" shot" I don't believe that straight shots exist (even if you did get a perfect 90 degree rotation on the ball wind will push the ball left or right... so it's nonsense to talk about a straight shot.

Here is my simple procedure to line-up and hit the shot of choice (by the way, this is the exact process I have used to get my 5-7 year old kids to learn how to curve the ball right or left.

1. Stand behind the ball and picture a line from my ball to the target (the target line). This line is useful only to select your intermediate target and to choose a ball flight. Then it should never be considered again.

2. Decide which flight you want to see (draw/fade, high/low). Based on the shot shape you want, select an intermediate target on the ground (right or left of the target line). This represents the swing path and it represents where I want the ball to start (my PowerPoint).

3. I select the correct club/grip relationship to match the flight I want to see. I will explain more momentarily, but at the beginning you need to have your hands on the club so that your grip, clubfaces relationship will dynamically create the ball flight you want.

4. Hammer down on the swing path line... the hammer motion will cause the toe to curl so that as you make your pivot the toe of the club will hit your PowerPoint (the spot that is on your swing path and is low to the ground). Here is the key, hammer down to your right in such a way that the club swings to the intermediate target/PowerPoint as you make your pivot. The entire backswing and downswing is focused on one thing, hammer down so that as you turn, the toe of the club will hit the PowerPoint. (when you hammer down and make a pivot... viola, you are making a golf swing). There is no need to swing up to a finish... that happens because momentum takes you to that finish all of your focus, all of your effort is simply hammer down and let the pivot bring the club to the ball.

The tricky part of this procedure is understanding your personal club/grip relationship to allow the flight you want. For me, if I take the club and place the bottom line of the club on the face of a clock... picture the bottom line pointing in line with 12 o'clock (90 degree turn has the bottom line pointing toward 9 o'clock). I turn the clubfaces to between 10/11. I place my thumb right down the top of the shaft and then rotate my forearm so the face appears square. That is my strong draw grip. I point the face at 11 (then regrip) for a baby draw. I point between 11/12 (then regrip) for a baby fade. For everyone I would expect this club grip relationship might be different... it takes some experimentation for each person. However, once you understand that you are swinging to a PowerPoint and the club/grip relationship you take at the beginning will determine the ball flight... then it can not get any easier. Once you understand this simple process, you can start trusting that the ball will do what you want and you can forget about all of the crap about the golf swing. Instead, hit a PowerPoint with the club/grip relationship that you need for the shot you want to see.

This methodology is completely consistent with DK's teaching (I believe). . and it really works. Now it's funny to me how much I have read and thought about the mechanics of the golf swing. I personally wish I had started with something as simple as Klassen's stuff because it would have saved a long time of frustration. The swing is irrelevant. Getting the correct swing path matched up with the grip/clubface relationship and swinging to the PowerPoint... that is it.

If you want or need something more then DK won't be the guy for you. If you want to keep it simple and hit shots to a target with the shape you want... maybe it's worth considering.

For what it's worth, I find a great overlap with Darrell Klassen and Shawn Clement. SC is very focused on a release to the target... which I interpret as a release to the PowerPoint. . maybe worth another thread.

[mvmac]

I am not sure why you are going back to my comment about curling the toe. That is an observation of what happens when you hammer down with your left hand.

Because if golfers think they actually need to actively "curl the toe", it can lead to Myth #7 .

I am not sure what "closed to the target" even means (I do really) it's just irrelevant to any conversation in golf unless you think you can actually hit a "straight" shot" I don't believe that straight shots exist (even if you did get a perfect 90 degree rotation on the ball wind will push the ball left or right... so it's nonsense to talk about a straight shot.

Face angle determines start line. So if the face is left of the target, it's going to start left of the target. You don't want a face left of the target if you're hitting a draw. So yes it is relevant.

I turn the clubfaces to between 10/11. I place my thumb right down the top of the shaft and then rotate my forearm so the face appears square. That is my strong draw grip. I point the face at 11 (then regrip) for a baby draw. I point between 11/12 (then regrip) for a baby fade.

That's cool, here's how I align my face for a draw. Again, I want the face slightly right of the target if I'm curving it left. So between 12/1.

[drsagacity]

MVMac,

I guess I am not explaining things clearly enough. I am sorry. We are pretty much saying the same thing. There is no doubt that hitting a draw, the club face will be closed to the swing path (PowerPoint/intermediate target). To me once you select an intermediate target or PowerPoint, it's the only line that matters (it matters because it represents the swingpath). If you prefer to compare the clubface to the imaginary target line (not the swing path), it will be open to the target line. I personally find any comparison between the clubface and the target line to be useless, but apparently you do not. Regardless, I understand your point... I agree.

No idea what you are talking about related to "Myth 7". Again, I don't know how it relates to Darrell Klassen... which is the point of this specific thread.

I say the clubface is pointing between 10-11 for a draw. You are say the face is between 12-1. How can we be saying the same thing?

It's easy. The golf swing is a dynamic motion. When I say the clubface is pointing between 10-11, I am talking about the static moment when I place my left hand on the grip. My thumb runs straight down the top of the shaft 12 o'clock when the clubface is 30-40 degrees closed. For me, that is the clubface left hand relationship that is needed to create a draw swing pattern. Now, once the hand is placed on the grip, I can rotate my forearm any way I want. I can leave it with the face pointing 30 degrees closed, or I could rotate my forearm clockwise and make the clubface appear open as you have done (you have a cupped left wrist). Where the clubface points in this static position is completely irrelevant. It's a matter of personal preference. The important piece of information is understanding once your hand goes onto the handle the relationship is set.

Now, in dynamic motion, when I come into impact, the handle will lead the club head. The club face will be slightly closed to the swing path (or open to the target line). The question for golfers should be, what clubface left hand relationship do they need to establish when they pick up the club to get into this dynamic position? I say start by closing the face 30-40 degrees. Place your left hand with the thumb running right down the 12 o'clock position and rotate it to what every feels comfortable for the static start position. If the ball hooks... go to 30 degrees...20...10 degrees to get the curve you want to see.

BTW - In the picture you show above, with the clubface slightly "open". If you just rotate your left hand/club to the point where your thumb is at the 12 o'clock position, you will see what I am talking about. The clubface will be closed (the wrist will be straight or bowed instead of cupped as it is in the picture). Martin Chuck does a great job explaining the difference between address hand position and impact hand position. You may want to check some of his videos. Shawn Clement also does a great job explaining this same thing.

As Darrell Klassen explains it, because your left hand is cupped at address, when you hammer down, the left wrist becomes flat/bowed (this curls the toe). I can't say this enough, you aren't actively trying to roll the toe as you have described it. If you watch or read the DK stuff I would be interested in seeing your thoughts otherwise, I don't guess there is much more to say.

[Ernest Jones]

MVMac, I guess I am not explaining things clearly enough. I am sorry. We are pretty much saying the same thing. There is no doubt that hitting a draw, the club face will be closed to the swing path (PowerPoint/intermediate target). To me once you select an intermediate target or PowerPoint, it's the only line that matters (it matters because it represents the swingpath). If you prefer to compare the clubface to the imaginary target line (not the swing path), it will be open to the target line. I personally find any comparison between the clubface and the target line to be useless, but apparently you do not. Regardless, I understand your point... I agree.   No idea what you are talking about related to "Myth 7". Again, I don't know how it relates to Darrell Klassen... which is the point of this specific thread. I say the clubface is pointing between 10-11 for a draw. You are say the face is between 12-1. How can we be saying the same thing? It's easy. The golf swing is a dynamic motion. When I say the clubface is pointing between 10-11, I am talking about the static moment when I place my left hand on the grip. My thumb runs straight down the top of the shaft 12 o'clock when the clubface is 30-40 degrees closed. For me, that is the clubface left hand relationship that is needed to create a draw swing pattern. Now, once the hand is placed on the grip, I can rotate my forearm any way I want. I can leave it with the face pointing 30 degrees closed, or I could rotate my forearm clockwise and make the clubface appear open as you have done (you have a cupped left wrist). Where the clubface points in this static position is completely irrelevant. It's a matter of personal preference. The important piece of information is understanding once your hand goes onto the handle the relationship is set. Now, in dynamic motion, when I come into impact, the handle will lead the club head. The club face will be slightly closed to the swing path (or open to the target line). The question for golfers should be, what clubface left hand relationship do they need to establish when they pick up the club to get into this dynamic position? I say start by closing the face 30-40 degrees. Place your left hand with the thumb running right down the 12 o'clock position and rotate it to what every feels comfortable for the static start position. If the ball hooks... go to 30 degrees...20...10 degrees to get the curve you want to see. BTW - In the picture you show above, with the clubface slightly "open". If you just rotate your left hand/club to the point where your thumb is at the 12 o'clock position, you will see what I am talking about. The clubface will be closed (the wrist will be straight or bowed instead of cupped as it is in the picture). Martin Chuck does a great job explaining the difference between address hand position and impact hand position. You may want to check some of his videos. Shawn Clement also does a great job explaining this same thing. As Darrell Klassen explains it, because your left hand is cupped at address, when you hammer down, the left wrist becomes flat/bowed (this curls the toe). I can't say this enough, you aren't actively trying to roll the toe as you have described it. If you watch or read the DK stuff I would be interested in seeing your thoughts otherwise, I don't guess there is much more to say.

That's all incredibly confusing to me but, if you're saying the face needs to be pointing left of the target at impact (10-11 o'clock in your terminology) then I would have to disagree unless your desired shot shape is a pull hook. The ball will start in the line your face is pointing at at impact so if you want to hit a draw that doesn't hook past the target, your face HAS to be pointing right of the target at impact (and closed to the path) to allow room for the curve otherwise it will curve past the target. Edit* just out of curiosity, in your opinion, what dictates the start line of the golf ball? Path or face?

[iacas]

That's all incredibly confusing to me but, if you're saying the face needs to be pointing left of the target at impact (10-11 o'clock in your terminology) then I would have to disagree unless your desired shot shape is a pull hook.

To the best of my ability, I think he's just saying that's how he grips it. It returns right-pointing (between 12 and 1) at impact when he's playing a draw.

I think.

This, btw, is one of my problems with the many "simple" methods out there. Many try so hard to be "simple" that they fail to educate, and when people have questions, they're just given "simple" answers that don't really shed much light on the details. And I know I say this with the "S" in 5SK being "Simple" but the Keys are what's simple in our world, not the explanations or the mechanics or whatever (per student). Those can be quite complex and it's the job of the instructor to keep the feels simple, prioritize properly, etc. But instructors are at least aware of the complexity beneath…

[Ernest Jones]

To the best of my ability, I think he's just saying that's how he grips it. It returns right-pointing (between 12 and 1) at impact when he's playing a draw. I think. [SPOILER=OT Whatever]This, btw, is one of my problems with the many "simple" methods out there. Many try so hard to be "simple" that they fail to educate, and when people have questions, they're just given "simple" answers that don't really shed much light on the details. And I know I say this with the "S" in 5SK being "Simple" but the Keys are what's simple in our world, not the explanations or the mechanics or whatever (per student). Those can be quite complex and it's the job of the instructor to keep the feels simple, prioritize properly, etc. But instructors are at least aware of the complexity beneath…[/SPOILER]

Maybe. Interesting thing about grips, if someone takes a "strong" grip and then rotates their hands and club together back to what would be considered a neutral grip, the club face will be close. Same thing in reverse for someone who takes a "weak" grip. So someone who tends to hit with an open or closed face but has otherwise sound mechanics might want to consider gripping the club with the face appropriately closed or open to suit their needs as opposed to "changing" their grip which might negatively affect their mechanics. Food for thought.

[drsagacity]

Iacas and Earnest Jones,

It's amazing to me that we are talking about "right facing" in relation to the "target line", instead of "left facing" in relation to the swing path...but ok. There are two factors that will dictate ball flight. Club face and swing path.

To hit a draw, the clubface is facing BETWEEN 12-1, assuming that the target line is represented by the line from 6 to 12 and the swing path is represented by the line from 7-1.

Let me bring this back to Darrell Klassen. Let's say the club head swing path is travelling from 7 toward 1 through impact. If the clubface is turned slightly toward the 12 (closed to the swing path), the result is a draw. If the clubface is aiming slightly toward the 2, it's a fade (open to the swing path). It works this way no matter where you are swinging the club. . . you can place your feet on the line going from 6-12 and you can swing the club down a path from 4-10, 5-11, 6-12, 7-1, 8-2 or anywhere in between. If your club face points to the left of the path, the ball will curve left. If it points to the right of the path, it will curve right.

[mvmac]

MVMac,

I guess I am not explaining things clearly enough. I am sorry. We are pretty much saying the same thing. There is no doubt that hitting a draw, the club face will be closed to the swing path (PowerPoint/intermediate target). To me once you select an intermediate target or PowerPoint, it's the only line that matters (it matters because it represents the swingpath). If you prefer to compare the clubface to the imaginary target line (not the swing path), it will be open to the target line. I personally find any comparison between the clubface and the target line to be useless, but apparently you do not. Regardless, I understand your point... I agree.

Here's all I'm saying. You have 160 yards and you are going to draw the shot.

Clubface: 2 degrees right of the flag(target),

Path: 4 degrees right of the target

Ball will start right of the target because the face pointed right and curve left because the face is closed to the path.

So it's not an "imaginary" target I'm referring to, it's the target you're trying to get the ball close to.

I sometimes read what you say as the face is 2 degrees left of the target to hit a draw.

No idea what you are talking about related to "Myth 7". Again, I don't know how it relates to Darrell Klassen... which is the point of this specific thread.

If you scroll over where I wrote Myth #7, you can click it and it will take you to what I mean. I'll make it simple, here's the link

BTW - In the picture you show above, with the clubface slightly "open". If you just rotate your left hand/club to the point where your thumb is at the 12 o'clock position, you will see what I am talking about. The clubface will be closed (the wrist will be straight or bowed instead of cupped as it is in the picture). Martin Chuck does a great job explaining the difference between address hand position and impact hand position. You may want to check some of his videos. Shawn Clement also does a great job explaining this same thing.

Ok that's what had me confused, the clock positions were referring to the grip, not where the face is aimed.

[iacas]

Iacas and Earnest Jones,

…

If your club face points to the left of the path, the ball will curve left. If it points to the right of the path, it will curve right.

I assure you, we all know that - @mvmac , @Ernest Jones , and @iacas . We're good with that.

Your language was a bit confusing, particularly when you talked about pointing the clubface between 10 and 11. I was the one that said that's probably just your description of how you grip it.

That is all.

BTW, I encourage you to do two things: 1) Get yourself an avatar, and 2) Participate in other sections and threads on this site. Lots of great info out there.

[drsagacity]

Perfect. Here is a video of Shawn Clement describing the grip. You can see exactly what I am talking about in this video.

[drsagacity]

MVMac,

Myth 7 does not apply to DK's methodology when following his instruction correctly... as you can see in the picture, your body has stopped at the ball... not at the PowerPoint. If your focus is on hammering down and hitting the PowerPoint with max power, your body will not stop turning at the ball. That being said, I could see this as a concern for someone working on DK's technique. If you do not accelerate to the PowerPoint and you default back to the ball as the target then you could be prone to that mistake. However, if you realize the ball is in the way of an effortless whip to the PowerPoint...it would never be an issue. (This same thing is a concern in Shawn Clement's methodology)...

I do think that is a valid concern that is a byproduct of the DK methodology. But I also think that it can be diagnosed and corrected in minutes. . .still, I agree that it is something to watch.

[JKolya]

The tricky part of this procedure is understanding your personal club/grip relationship to allow the flight you want. For me, if I take the club and place the bottom line of the club on the face of a clock... picture the bottom line pointing in line with 12 o'clock (90 degree turn has the bottom line pointing toward 9 o'clock). I turn the clubfaces to between 10/11. I place my thumb right down the top of the shaft and then rotate my forearm so the face appears square. That is my strong draw grip. I point the face at 11 (then regrip) for a baby draw. I point between 11/12 (then regrip) for a baby fade.

That makes sense to me. It's a good little cheat for consistency in gripping the club. I sometimes struggle with this as my grip is not consistent throughout my clubs.

[drsagacity]

That makes sense to me. It's a good little cheat for consistency in gripping the club. I sometimes struggle with this as my grip is not consistent throughout my clubs.

JK,

I actually started doing this for my kids. My daughter especially would pick up the club with a weak left hand grip. Instead of telling her to rotate her left hand with no specific goal in mind, I combined the lesson on taking the grip with a lesson on working the ball. She now completely gets what it takes to hit curve the ball left or right. She just turned 7.

[JKolya]

Just watched a YouTube video on his PowePoint where he puts a box a foot plus past the ball and slightly inside and says that that is the target. He's basically talking about swinging on an arc and through the ball, but that seems like an odd way of explaining it as I could reach the spot on the box in multiple ways without even making contact with the ball. [Video]http://youtube.com/watch?v=cnkheqncGkcl[/Video]

[drsagacity]

I can't see the video you posted, was it this video? [video]http://youtu.be/oDvUISJxPas[/Video]

[JKolya]

It was not that one, but the box concept is the same. I do not think what he is saying is wrong - it's just that for me that thought/feel does not work as I have some swing flaws where I could still hit the box, but miss the ball (or just not make solid contact). Other than the one video I just watched I have zero experience with DK so I am not making any judgements, but in general it seems that he is teaching finding a feel that works and sticking with that. Me personally, I need more mechanics to improve, but once I get those and match a feel to them then I can play more off of feel.

[mvmac]

MVMac,

Myth 7 does not apply to DK's methodology when following his instruction correctly... as you can see in the picture, your body has stopped at the ball... not at the PowerPoint.

Yes not claiming the DK method leads to Myth #7, just pointing it out for viewers that might not be aware of the potential problems of "rolling the toe".

[hacker100]

Good Gaawd! All this over such a simple concept ! To me, out of my collection of over 100 golf dvd's, books, e-books, etc. Klassen is the ONLY instruction that pulled my game out of the 20-year pits. It helped me so much that it made me angry that I had wasted so many years trying the other "versions". His one big omission, which took me a while to figure out was the "snapping the wrists". You actually don't snap the wrists. They "snap" because of your left forearm action, not any consious hand or wrist action. His original demo of slamming the club in the ground says it all. Hammering, chopping, whatever. My whole swing is nothing but my left forearm, with everything else reacting of course.