So much for lessons.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Played 18 today. Working on some major changes to my swing so given that I didnt do too bad. Lots of bogeys and doubles with a few pars.

So on the second 9 holes there is this couple who clearly had never golfed before. 4 hours later and they werent even finished with the FIRST 9 holes....and this is a VERY short course....6 par three's and 3 par fours. All shorter holes. Nothing you couldnt sneeze hard and hit the pin from the tee on.

This couple is holding everyone else up, but the group in front of us wont ask them if they can play through because they had kids about six  years old or so who couldnt play but were all hitting balls.

Imagine 3 six year old kids who are hitting the ball about 25 feet at a time whos parents wont just help them along and who cant putt at all but are putting over and over again till they finally luck out and get it in the whole.

Now, Im ok with slow players in front of me, but my nephew had to work this afternoon and the guy we ended up playing with seemed like he was about to go on a murder rampage or something. He's cussing the ball, cussing his clubs, cussing the course, cussing the golf gods and then cussing because he's cussing. I was waiting to see if he'd toss his clubs in the pond or something.

So we're up on the second to last hole and he's telling me about this great instructing school he went to for 8 weeks.

Hmm.

Guy, Ive been sticking them better than you and putting just as good as you and my game inside 100 yards is 3 times better than yours....and I just made major swing changes and today is the first day Ive tried them on the course.

If after EIGHT weeks this is where your lessons have gotten you....barely able to keep up with a guy who hasnt had lessons and who has just changed everything about his swing, then I think I'll pass on the suggestion that I try out the golf school you graduated from.

[johnclayton1982]

Its all relative.  He may have shot 110, but he might have been shooting 140 before the school.  You have no idea.  I love my pro, but for the first three months I didn't break 110.  While shooting 110, if someone had asked, I would have told them I have the best pro around.  The other side of the story is my last round before lessons was 130, and now I'm playing in the 80s (about 8 months later).  Harsh judgment on your part, IMO.  You have no idea where his progress is.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Its all relative.  He may have shot 110, but he might have been shooting 140 before the school.  You have no idea.  I love my pro, but for the first three months I didn't break 110.  While shooting 110, if someone had asked, I would have told them I have the best pro around.  The other side of the story is my last round before lessons was 130, and now I'm playing in the 80s (about 8 months later).  Harsh judgment on your part, IMO.  You have no idea where his progress is.

Good points.

This guy had a horrible anger issue. I cant even post the vulgarity he was using. Lots of derogatory words used for the female genitalia, if you know what I mean.

Im wondering now if he wasnt much worse before getting the instruction.

[JetFan1983]

You can't really know how good someone's instructor is by how well they play. There are plenty of pros and low-handicap players who may arguably have bad teachers teaching them. Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean their teacher is a genius. On the other side of that coin, if a player is terrible, it doesn't mean his teacher is terrible. Some people just are terrible at learning, even if you give them the correct info. Injury, lack of free time, age, talent, ego, stubbornness, impatience, never practicing, expecting it to come easy....these things all play a factor.

The best way to know if someone's teacher is good or not is ask them what they are working on. If you stick around this forum long enough, after some time you'll be able to get to a point where you can discern good tips from bad ones. A player may be terrible, but if you ask him what his teacher has him practice, it may be exactly what that particular player needs at that time.

[x129]

And some coaches are just not a match for certain players. Either the swing styles don't match (a good instructor should adapt to the student) or learning style (teacher is all feel and you want technical or vice versa). And of course no teacher can help a student who will not practice.

Of course at the end of the half the teachers out there are below average......

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

You can't really know how good someone's instructor is by how well they play. There are plenty of pros and low-handicap players who may arguably have bad teachers teaching them. Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean their teacher is a genius. On the other side of that coin, if a player is terrible, it doesn't mean his teacher is terrible. Some people just are terrible at learning, even if you give them the correct info. Injury, lack of free time, age, talent, ego, stubbornness, impatience, never practicing, expecting it to come easy....these things all play a factor.

The best way to know if someone's teacher is good or not is ask them what they are working on. If you stick around this forum long enough, after some time you'll be able to get to a point where you can discern good tips from bad ones. A player may be terrible, but if you ask him what his teacher has him practice, it may be exactly what that particular player needs at that time.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Something about instructors that bothers me is that Ive seen one of them say something....then another will say exactly the opposite.

I mean, if there is a 'right' way to do it, shouldnt the instruction be consistent?

[Harmonious]

I guess the answer is:  There is no RIGHT way to play golf.  Many people have many different opinions on how to best apply the club to the ball, some work for some people and don't work for others. The secret, as stated above, is to find the right instructor for you and you alone.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Something about instructors that bothers me is that Ive seen one of them say something....then another will say exactly the opposite.

I mean, if there is a 'right' way to do it, shouldnt the instruction be consistent?

So the conclusion is that there is no "right" way to swing a golf club. The only part of a golf swing that is 90% similar among all good golfers is impact and how you get to impact is pretty much irrelevant. It's the "moment of truth" as they say.

Take a look at various pro swings from Charlie Wi to Rory McIlroy to Jim Furyk to Ernie Els and you'll see they're all completely different; that demonstrates the above assertion that a swing should be whatever your body and mind find the easiest to perform repeatedly and consistently and that you should be trying to find a teaching pro who can work with what you and your body are capable of, not a single swing that every student must conform to.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I guess the answer is:  There is no RIGHT way to play golf.  Many people have many different opinions on how to best apply the club to the ball, some work for some people and don't work for others. The secret, as stated above, is to find the right instructor for you and you alone.

But if there is no 'right' way, then where does the instructor even begin?

I mean, say he's trying to get me to do something Im physically incapable of doing because in his mind I have to do it that way?

Which begs the question, what is the point of an instructor to begin with if there is no 'right' way? Whats the starting point? When is it 'right' ?

Fully and finally it would seem that if there is no 'right' way then instruction is pointless except at this 'point of impact'....which just leaves me thinking that Im better off just reading a lot of material and watching the pros and trying to work on my swing myself to see what works.

Very confusing

[nevets88]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

But if there is no 'right' way, then where does the instructor even begin?

Very confusing

Whomever is most effective. Not necessarily hitting the ball better immediately, but moving your low point forward, that sort of thing.

[x129]

There is no right way to play but there are a lot of wrong ways. Most pro swings are very similiar. They just have a lot of fluff around the core which distracts you from seeing that.

A good instructor matches the student to the swing. They know you are weak and have no flexibility so they don't try and have you swing like Bubba. Instructions can help (or hurt) but it will not turn lead into gold. The pro can help bring out your talent but he can't give it to you.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I guess the answer is:  There is no RIGHT way to play golf.  Many people have many different opinions on how to best apply the club to the ball, some work for some people and don't work for others. The secret, as stated above, is to find the right instructor for you and you alone.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

But if there is no 'right' way, then where does the instructor even begin?

I mean, say he's trying to get me to do something Im physically incapable of doing because in his mind I have to do it that way?

Which begs the question, what is the point of an instructor to begin with if there is no 'right' way? Whats the starting point? When is it 'right' ?

Fully and finally it would seem that if there is no 'right' way then instruction is pointless except at this 'point of impact'....which just leaves me thinking that Im better off just reading a lot of material and watching the pros and trying to work on my swing myself to see what works.

Very confusing

The difference is that there are LOTS of right ways to swing a club and even with the opposing 'wrong' ways it's possible to add corrections to the swing to get back to a perfect impact position, it's just a lot more difficult.

If I took you a city you'd never been to and said, "go to 123 Bob St" you'd possibly wander around for ages before finding it or you might find it quite easily. What would be ideal though is someone from that city showing you exactly how to find it.

Some good city guides could take a look at you and realise that you're healthy and fit and will get to Bob St quicker by running. Someone else may be better walking but someone else may be better in a car. Those in the car may be excellent navigators and able to comprehend detailed backstreet shortcuts but someone else needs simple instructions.

A bad city guide will put everyone into a car regardless of ability and give them all the same instructions to get there.

Teaching pros are your golf swing city guides; use them if you want to or need to but they're by no means a requirement to enjoying golf.

[Kobey]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

But if there is no 'right' way, then where does the instructor even begin?

I mean, say he's trying to get me to do something Im physically incapable of doing because in his mind I have to do it that way?

Which begs the question, what is the point of an instructor to begin with if there is no 'right' way? Whats the starting point? When is it 'right' ?

Fully and finally it would seem that if there is no 'right' way then instruction is pointless except at this 'point of impact'....which just leaves me thinking that Im better off just reading a lot of material and watching the pros and trying to work on my swing myself to see what works.

Very confusing

Good points.  That's exactly why I am reluctant to take lessons.  How do you even know if an instructor is right for you until it is too late?  I am happy with the progress I am making on part of my game.  I'm driving between 250 and 270 and generally straight after one summer of practicing (about 10 or so rounds).  My putting is coming along pretty good as well.  But everything in between I look like a 7 year old on steroids.  If I tell an instructor that I only want to work on my irons, will he happily oblige me or will his ego get in the way and try to make me learn what he wants me to?  I don't know anyone who has ever had lessons so I don't know the first thing about how they usually work.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Kobey

Good points.  That's exactly why I am reluctant to take lessons.  How do you even know if an instructor is right for you until it is too late?  I am happy with the progress I am making on part of my game.  I'm driving between 250 and 270 and generally straight after one summer of practicing (about 10 or so rounds).  My putting is coming along pretty good as well.  But everything in between I look like a 7 year old on steroids.  If I tell an instructor that I only want to work on my irons, will he happily oblige me or will his ego get in the way and try to make me learn what he wants me to?  I don't know anyone who has ever had lessons so I don't know the first thing about how they usually work.

A good teacher should be able to quickly recognize things in your swing that could use some help.  After all, this would not be his first rodeo, even if it is yours. If he/she is good, there will be no ego problem, unless you don't want to follow what you are being taught, and immediately question and/or doubt everything.  Then the ego problem would be yours, and you probably shouldn't take lessons.

Just a guess, but if you hit your irons poorly, your driver swing probably also needs work, too.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

But if there is no 'right' way, then where does the instructor even begin?

I mean, say he's trying to get me to do something Im physically incapable of doing because in his mind I have to do it that way?

Which begs the question, what is the point of an instructor to begin with if there is no 'right' way? Whats the starting point? When is it 'right' ?

Fully and finally it would seem that if there is no 'right' way then instruction is pointless except at this 'point of impact'....which just leaves me thinking that Im better off just reading a lot of material and watching the pros and trying to work on my swing myself to see what works.

Very confusing

Well a good place to start is with the grip.  Watching my friend (club pro) get a lesson it started with a review of his grip.  Seems that he was creeping the grip out of his fingers of his right hand and more into his palm.  The guy working with him told me that he didn't care how well someone swung the club because it wouldn't matter if you had a bad "hold" ( grip).

From the grip there are many other fundamentals to work on including stance, alignment, and balance.  This is before you have even swung the club.  Impact is the moment of truth and getting there you start seeing the different methodologies play out and then again till finish.

If you decide to go it alone, I would recommend working on tempo and balance.  Save the technical aspects for a trained eye.  It will save you years finding someone you click with.

[Kobey]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

A good teacher should be able to quickly recognize things in your swing that could use some help.  After all, this would not be his first rodeo, even if it is yours. If he/she is good, there will be no ego problem, unless you don't want to follow what you are being taught, and immediately question and/or doubt everything.  Then the ego problem would be yours, and you probably shouldn't take lessons.

Just a guess, but if you hit your irons poorly, your driver swing probably also needs work, too.

I guess I'm just afraid that if I took lessons I might get worse before I got better.  And since I don't have a lot of time to golf, that worse period may stretch for quite a while and take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.  The way I am now I at least have some good shots that make it worthwhile.  Then again, if I took lessons, maybe I could move to florida and go pro in a few years. I'm only 48, there's still time right?

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Kobey

I guess I'm just afraid that if I took lessons I might get worse before I got better.  And since I don't have a lot of time to golf, that worse period may stretch for quite a while and take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.  The way I am now I at least have some good shots that make it worthwhile.  Then again, if I took lessons, maybe I could move to florida and go pro in a few years. I'm only 48, there's still time right?

If you need major changes, then you may in fact play worse for awhile.  The question you have to ask yourself is whether you really want to get better.  If you are happy just hitting some good shots, then maybe you wouldn't get the benefit from lessons; rather than someone who truly was serious about improving.

Case in point:  From time to time over the past 4 years, I play with a guy in his 40's who has a truly god-awful swing.  He was told by a golf instructor (one-day free clinic) that "his swing had more planes than O'Hare Airport".  The problem is, he doesn't want to spend the time to really get better, because he plays once a year in a tournament and doesn't want to embarass himself if he actually plays worse for awhile.  As a result, his handicap hasn't moved in the past 4 years, although he plays a couple times a week.  Had he bit the bullet and gotten some good lessons  4 years ago, and diligently practiced the suggested changes, his handicap would be half what it is today, IMO.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Kobey

Good points.  That's exactly why I am reluctant to take lessons.  How do you even know if an instructor is right for you until it is too late?  I am happy with the progress I am making on part of my game.  I'm driving between 250 and 270 and generally straight after one summer of practicing (about 10 or so rounds).  My putting is coming along pretty good as well.  But everything in between I look like a 7 year old on steroids.  If I tell an instructor that I only want to work on my irons, will he happily oblige me or will his ego get in the way and try to make me learn what he wants me to?  I don't know anyone who has ever had lessons so I don't know the first thing about how they usually work.

Definitely agree.

Ive read too many comments about 'find another instructor' on forums like this.

Its a bit unnerving given the cost of it all. A year of lessons only to find out that this guy isnt helping your game at all. Meh.

I changed my swing and tried it yesterday...its more of the typical swing youd see just about everywhere.

Tried it off the first tee and had my longest drive to date. About 270 yards. Given that a lot of that was likely roll, but Ive driven off that tee a number of times the last 8 weeks or so and this was the longest yet.

Ive got to get used to the swing, for sure, but other than my atrocious putting I did a LOT better than I was doing. I was up actually making birdie attempts a few times yesterday, which is a huge improvement over just a few weeks ago.

Im not downplaying the usefulness of an instructor, but If I can get my game down pretty good myself with all the instruction out there, then maybe see one for some fine tuning, I think I could justify the cost in my own mind a lot better.

Im about as penny pinching as it gets. It took me months to talk myself into buying a decent bag and some new clubs.....and these were not expensive ones by any means.

I could likely get some tips on putting. My game is pretty good for a beginner right up until its time to break out a putter and thats where it all falls apart.

We were on a par 4 yesterday and this guy had just joined up with us on the 6th hole. I had been doing REALLY well up to that point. But his cussing and anger was pretty distracting so I blew my tee shot horribly. Ive hit that fairway  almost dead center about 220 - 230 yards out a number of times (playing it very safe, huge ponds on both sides of the fairway on this one). But He had hit THREE times and skunked all of them so by the time hes done throwing his fit about it I was so worked up I couldnt even concentrate. I was hoping he'd just play through at that point....but he didnt.

So I go up to my ball, just played the one, not wanting to be on the tee box with this guy any longer than I had to be, and hit with a fairway wood and it was a really good shot that ended up just right of center and within distance of a 7 iron to the green.. The next one was damned near perfect up onto the green. So Im on in 3 even after blowing my drive, somehow I managed to get my mojo back. And then I ended up taking FOUR strokes to get it into the hole.  Granted this particular green is the hardest one on the course, but FOUR strokes???

So my guess is even after Ive gotten my long game down I'll still be struggling with putting for a long time to come. Im not sure what the problem is.