So much for lessons.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by iacas

I know a conclusion has kind of been reached, but I'm going to respond kind of "in the flow" anyway. I will say as a preface that I agree there's no need to apologize. Thanks for the discussion.

Quite honestly, I doubt that you're as good - in terms of golf, I'm not talking about other areas of life or work or play - at that as you think you are. Maybe you are - maybe you're a golf savant or something - but nobody here knows (correct me if I'm wrong) what scores you shoot or what your swing looks like. If you truly could just "copy it quickly" and you understood things as quickly as you say you do, you'd be playing some really amazing golf by now. No? Still shooting in the 80s? 90s?

Feel isn't real, and again, maybe you're in that some tiny percentage, but the odds are really stacked against you. And that's no fault of your own - I just don't know that you've been around golf long enough to really get what I mean.

I havent kept a score card for the most part since I first started. I kept a few scores at first then a mentor who also golfs told me to drop the card and just watch the holes individually for this year and maybe next.

What I do know is out of 18 holes I get MOSTLY bogeys and double bogeys depending mainly on how horribly uneven the green is..and if its wet or not.

My putting can add up to 3 or 4 strokes on one hole at times. I par a few each 18 and maybe one or two triple bogeys each round or so. But again, because my putting is atrocious. Getting to the green is easy as hell. From there I some times want to toss my putter in the pond by the time I get the ball in the hole.

Ive been trying to forget the scorecard and just work on each hole so I dont get depressed about seeing an overall score. I get a bogey and I get encouraged. A par does even better for my morale. Seeing 25-30 over at the end of the round just gets me depressed, even though I know its mostly what I already know...my putting sucks.

I had one hole where I dropped it up onto the green from the tee on a 160 yard par 3...then managed to four putt. So I have a great tee shot than still ends up in a double bogey.

So yeah, I agree, Im not doing as well as I could and will be, but I know factually that its not my long game thats the problem. Its 3 and 4 putting pretty much every hole (not all, mind you) even when Ive dropped the ball under 10 feet from the pin from the tee box.

If I didnt have to putt Id probably get really good scores if all I had to do was get it to the green.

I didnt expect to be playing par golf after 90 days and frankly people who set unreasonable expectations in life dont typically last very long at anything they do. I know because Ive been there.

Im certainly not anxious about it.

Like I said, Ive really only been doing this the right way for 3 months. How far along SHOULD I be at this point? Playing par golf ? I certainly have no fantasies about anything of the sort. Other than my putting Im very happy with the progress Ive made in so short a time...especially when the gent I know has been at it for over 2 decades and still 'plays his slice' as he calls it. If I werent progressing Id be where he is...where I was then...and my back would be in horrible pain again.

I dont think I agree about any odds being stacked.

If anyone had seen me 90 days ago and compared it to today I seriously doubt they could have anything negative to say other than tell me to get better at putting.

Again, I had no fanatasies about beating Tiger within 3 months. That sort of thinking would only prove how much a fool I would be.

For 90 days I am very content with my long game.

How many NEW players do you know who say that? I know a few new players and Ive seen them ready to throw their whole bag in the creek with my putter. :-)

[Kobey]

Guess certain urls aren't allowed.  Got a bunch of asterisks when I tried to post it.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Kobey

Guess certain urls aren't allowed.  Got a bunch of asterisks when I tried to post it.

I found it by copying the last part of that url into a google search

It was on Easy Golf Tips .com

Thanks

[canadianpro]

The best putting tip I have is to lobby the USGA and the R&A; for a bigger hole  :)

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by canadianpro

The best putting tip I have is to lobby the USGA and the R&A; for a bigger hole  :)

Was I reading here or some other forum where some golf courses have actually made huge holes to make the game easier?

I thought I read about it somewhere.

I think Id lose interest real quick if it were too easy.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by iacas

Feel isn't real, and again, maybe you're in that some tiny percentage, but the odds are really stacked against you. And that's no fault of your own - I just don't know that you've been around golf long enough to really get what I mean.

actually in reading this again I begin to wonder if you are an instructor yourself.

I mean, telling me that the odds are stacked against me makes it SOUND as though it were some desperate situation that I need someone to rescue me from...ie an instructor to guide me somewhere I cannot find myself.

I apologized before about my lack of taking others situations into account, but I in no way meant to say that I changed my mind as far as *I* am concerned.

I know very well that I CAN dissect the golf swing. My progress has proven it.

I have an issue or two that I know of that no instructor would need to correct me one other than my putting and that is;

1) keeping my eye on the ball thru impact. Sometimes I blink or take my eye off the ball. I know about it and am working on it sans instructor.

2) Lifting my head very slightly when I take my eye off the ball as stated in #1 above. I am aware of it and am working on that as well sans instructor.

I realize that some may not comprehend OR be able to accept it but SOME people are actually VERY good at reverse engineering and dissecting just about ANYTHING in life....including a golf swing.

Its just how our brains are geared to work.

[Kobey]

I think the problem is that there are basically two types of golfers.  Some want to learn everything about the game and do everything they can to improve.  They learn all the tech stuff and take things like the rules and the integrity of the game very seriously.

Then there are guys like me that enjoy just playing the game for the fun of it.  I like improving but am not interested at the moment in learning about arcs, angles, planes, stack and tilt, bait and switch, etc...  That stuff just makes my head hurt.

People like me are pretty much beginners, so we see a lot of improvement fast.  When we say we are getting pretty good, it isn't in comparison to professionals, it's in comparison to what we were before. I can still see a lot of improvement with what I read and watch on the internet for free, so there is no reason for me to pay someone to fix things that I don't consider broken yet.

I know that could complicate things later if I decide I'm not happy with where I am after I plateau,  but since I'm nearing 50 already, I'm probably just going to go downhill anyway.  Maybe I should look into getting senior shafts on any clubs I buy from now on.

[skates]

I have been working within a Golf Academy for the last couple of months, no not as an instructor but helping all the main pros here and I can say posture, stance and alignment are some of the few basics that all the instructors do in the first couple of lessons with all students. It is true that all of these vary with each golfer but in reality they are only different based on the students differences whether it be weight, height or flexibility.

[Harmonious]

Well, OP, it does sound like you have answered your own question about whether you need any help.  If you are happy with your game at this point (100-120 shooter?) and feel that just becoming a better putter will solve it, then go for it. You'll probably get better, in time. How much better? Who knows?

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Well, OP, it does sound like you have answered your own question about whether you need any help.  If you are happy with your game at this point (100-120 shooter?) and feel that just becoming a better putter will solve it, then go for it. You'll probably get better, in time. How much better? Who knows?

Id 'think' that Im averaging 1 to 1.5 over per hole in 18, or somewhere there abouts. Assuming its 1.5 over per hole average thats 27 over on 18 is somewhere around 100 on a par 72 course., which sounds about right, overall.

Much better than averaging, and this is no exaggeration, probably 5 over on EVERY hole back when I tried to play with the idiot who was trying to teach me to play around 97ish or so. If we had 120 back then it was a great day. I mean 120 was a LOW score. I remember writing 11's, 12's and 13's on some holes. And my back hurt like hell pretty much 24/7.

If I can get my 3 and 4 puts down to 1 and 2 puts, how many strokes would that account for over 18 holes? 18 at least, Id say. Even if Im one over regulation getting to a long par four or par 5 green, if I can 1 or 2 putt I'll be ecstatic.

I dont intend on playing any tourneys, so breaking 90 would be about 'par' for my golf game, as far as Im concerned.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Kobey

I think the problem is that there are basically two types of golfers.  Some want to learn everything about the game and do everything they can to improve.  They learn all the tech stuff and take things like the rules and the integrity of the game very seriously.

Then there are guys like me that enjoy just playing the game for the fun of it.  I like improving but am not interested at the moment in learning about arcs, angles, planes, stack and tilt, bait and switch, etc...  That stuff just makes my head hurt.

People like me are pretty much beginners, so we see a lot of improvement fast.  When we say we are getting pretty good, it isn't in comparison to professionals, it's in comparison to what we were before. I can still see a lot of improvement with what I read and watch on the internet for free, so there is no reason for me to pay someone to fix things that I don't consider broken yet.

I know that could complicate things later if I decide I'm not happy with where I am after I plateau,  but since I'm nearing 50 already, I'm probably just going to go downhill anyway.  Maybe I should look into getting senior shafts on any clubs I buy from now on.

Count me in that second group.

I was getting all technical over the end of summer when I started but after changing my swing I realized what everyone was saying was right...I was seriously OVER thinking everything about the swing.

I can make very slight changes in my stance, grip, ball position, etc without having a heart attack about it.  Of course that requires UNDERSTANDING the basic golf swing, which is what Ive been working on,but keeping it at the basics instead of getting into imagined geometrical shapes all around my body and the club and driving myself off the deep end.

It does seem that a lot of players are really making it FAR too complex. If it were so complex it would seem that when I hit a fade now Id have to run down to the local pro to figure it out instead of simple making a slight grip adjustment or tucking my right arm in just a little more.

There was a chart that someone here posted for me a few days ago that was an ENORMOUS help. Just SEEING the club path and position on that chart really made it pretty clear how the club can be manipulated by changing the grip, stance, ball position, etc to get a whole range of effects on the ball. Went to the range and sure enough, just by tucking that right elbow in a bit to get an inside to out swing and I drew the ball very slightly instead of that fade I had before. Closed the clubface a bit, aimed right and got a much more pronounced draw that I could actually play around a dogleg left if needed, which Im going to give a shot at this week since there is one par four at this course down the road that has some evergreen trees blocking the green to the left. Play the tee shot short so the trees are in the way and see if I can draw the ball around them.

What I cant figure out is the attitude that says NO ONE can figure this game out without a live coach. I defy them to explain how far Ive gotten in 3 months just by asking questions here and elsewhere and watching videos.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

actually in reading this again I begin to wonder if you are an instructor yourself.

I mean, telling me that the odds are stacked against me makes it SOUND as though it were some desperate situation that I need someone to rescue me from...ie an instructor to guide me somewhere I cannot find myself.

I apologized before about my lack of taking others situations into account, but I in no way meant to say that I changed my mind as far as *I* am concerned.

I know very well that I CAN dissect the golf swing. My progress has proven it.

I have an issue or two that I know of that no instructor would need to correct me one other than my putting and that is;

1) keeping my eye on the ball thru impact. Sometimes I blink or take my eye off the ball. I know about it and am working on it sans instructor.

2) Lifting my head very slightly when I take my eye off the ball as stated in #1 above. I am aware of it and am working on that as well sans instructor.

I realize that some may not comprehend OR be able to accept it but SOME people are actually VERY good at reverse engineering and dissecting just about ANYTHING in life....including a golf swing.

Its just how our brains are geared to work.

Yes, iacas is an instructor, a damn good one, who knows where you'd be by now if you went to him for lessons

I think it's great you've made fast improvements the past 90 days.  But your progress hasn't proven you how the golf swing works.  How do you know those two pieces are your issues?  How do you know those are the causes and not the effects?  How do you know what you're feeling, would show up on video or Trackman?

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yes, iacas is an instructor, a damn good one, who knows where you'd be by now if you went to him for lessons

I think it's great you've made fast improvements the past 90 days.  But your progress hasn't proven you how the golf swing works.  How do you know those two pieces are your issues?  How do you know those are the causes and not the effects?  How do you know what you're feeling, would show up on video or Trackman?

While that may be the case, Im not interested in lessons.

I do find it peculiar, however, that its been instructors who keep either implying or stating directly that I just cant do it without them.

Iacas was the first to try to make it sound so desperate...which, based on the last 90 days, I do find humorous.

Now, what I find funny about YOUR comment is that you seem to think only Iacas can 'explain' to me how the golf swing works, and apparently he can only work this magic once Ive signed the check, and so apparently a thousand other legitimate instructors who have written a multitude of information in little things we call 'books' are presumably idiots who couldnt even begin to describe a golf ball to me.

eh, not buying it. Sorry.

As far as MY swing and the issues I am working on....uh, I think I can tell when my eyes blink or move. Know what I mean? And when I FEEL my head raise slightly and then skull a ball out 130 yards down the fairway Its pretty damned obvious that the bottom of the club hit the ball instead of the face...ie it RAISED just before I made contact.

Wow, pretty simple, eh?

And guess what?

I can even tell when shoulder and arms are slightly ahead of where they should be at impact. I know before Ive even let my head follow throught that the ball is going to be headed over a bit right because I can tell where my shoulders were and I know where they should have been.

I KNOW what Im feeling because I SEE the results of the ball flight.

I know because if I purposefully do the same thing again the ball does the same thing yet again.

If correct it, waddayknow, the ball goes straight this time.

And all of this because of  wonderful things called books and videos.

Again, I realize its hard for the mind to doesnt dissect every aspect of life to not be able grasp that some folks CAN.

And again, Im not interested in lessons and would appreciate the respect of not having them pushed on me.

I came here for discussions, not sales pitches.

[Harmonious]

Seems this thread has run its course.  OP does not want lessons, is happy with his game (except for putting) and knows what his faults are, and how to fix them.  Sounds like he's happy with it.  I don't think any persuading arguments from those who teach or those who have taken a lesson will change things.  Good luck, OP!

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Seems this thread has run its course.  OP does not want lessons, is happy with his game (except for putting) and knows what his faults are, and how to fix them.  Sounds like he's happy with it.  I don't think any persuading arguments from those who teach or those who have taken a lesson will change things.  Good luck, OP!

Wow. Its nice to see that you finally get it.

I mean, Ive only said it like a dozen times or more.

Yeah, I AM happy with it.

So we can leave it alone now, I assume...correct?

You know, Ive also figured out how to tell if Im out of coffee.

I open the can and its empty.

Pretty easy to figure out...all the evidence I need is to see the bottom of the can when I pull off the lid.

And youre correct, no supposed persuading arguments are going to make a bit of difference. I came here for DISCUSSION, not SALES pitches.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

actually in reading this again I begin to wonder if you are an instructor yourself.

I mean, telling me that the odds are stacked against me makes it SOUND as though it were some desperate situation that I need someone to rescue me from...ie an instructor to guide me somewhere I cannot find myself.

What are you even talking about at this point?

Cards on the table? Here you go: I highly doubt that you're anywhere near as good at "seeing" and "doing" things in the full swing as you think you are.

If you were as good as you say you are, why can't you learn to putt? Putting is the simplest part of the game. Averaging two putts per green isn't that difficult. Let's say you average 3 now, because even my kid who doesn't seem to aim or care about distance can three putt. You're shooting in the 120s? Let's say you shoot 110 on average. You're still not breaking 90.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I apologized before about my lack of taking others situations into account, but I in no way meant to say that I changed my mind as far as *I* am concerned.

I know very well that I CAN dissect the golf swing. My progress has proven it.

I get the sense that we're being put on here. But whatever.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

1) keeping my eye on the ball thru impact. Sometimes I blink or take my eye off the ball. I know about it and am working on it sans instructor.

2) Lifting my head very slightly when I take my eye off the ball as stated in #1 above. I am aware of it and am working on that as well sans instructor.

I realize that some may not comprehend OR be able to accept it but SOME people are actually VERY good at reverse engineering and dissecting just about ANYTHING in life....including a golf swing.

Its just how our brains are geared to work.

Do you know how many times I've told someone to "keep their eye on the ball through impact"? Zero. Do you know how many times I've ever heard a good instructor tell a student to do this? Zero.

I think you're over-estimating your abilities. By a lot. I think the odds of you being some sort of golf savant (who can't putt) are somewhere between slim and none. Maybe you are. Probably you're not.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Well, OP, it does sound like you have answered your own question about whether you need any help.  If you are happy with your game at this point (100-120 shooter?) and feel that just becoming a better putter will solve it, then go for it. You'll probably get better, in time. How much better? Who knows?

That's the nice way of putting it. Thanks H. :-)

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I dont intend on playing any tourneys, so breaking 90 would be about 'par' for my golf game, as far as Im concerned.

I don't have a comment on that. I just find it interesting that a guy who has solved the golf swing (or who can if he just thinks about it) thinks that breaking 90 is where you want to get to. And on what kind of course, we don't know. I'm picturing something at about 6100 yards.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

What I cant figure out is the attitude that says NO ONE can figure this game out without a live coach. I defy them to explain how far Ive gotten in 3 months just by asking questions here and elsewhere and watching videos.

1. I don't think you've gotten as far as you think you've gotten.
2. Nobody's said that "no one" can figure out the game. I put a number to it as low as a few hundred hours. Most students would rather pay for three lessons per year from a good pro than put in hundreds of hours of work just studying their swing and the golf swing in general.

Originally Posted by mvmac

I think it's great you've made fast improvements the past 90 days.  But your progress hasn't proven you how the golf swing works.  How do you know those two pieces are your issues?  How do you know those are the causes and not the effects?  How do you know what you're feeling, would show up on video or Trackman?

He doesn't.

This thread has taken a turn for the silly. It's very similar to these threads where people talk about shooting 90 but hitting their driver 350 yards. Except this one is less likely than that, because some people just have speed.

GFF, perhaps it's time to put up or shut up (on this thread): post a "My Swing" thread with some good video of your swing. Let's see it. You can tell us not to comment, but if it's good, we'll be happy to tell you that, too.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Yeah, I AM happy with it. So we can leave it alone now, I assume...correct?

And youre correct, no supposed persuading arguments are going to make a bit of difference. I came here for DISCUSSION, not SALES pitches.

Excuse me, but you haven't gotten a "sales pitch" yet. You have gotten discussion. You clearly wanted some sort of discussion along these lines because you kept posting, and you started the thread in the first place.

If you're happy to shoot 90 AFTER you improve your putting on whatever track you play, then good luck to you. But you haven't "figured out the golf swing," and to pretend that you have is just silly.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Feel isn't real, and again, maybe you're in that some tiny percentage, but the odds are really stacked against you . And that's no fault of your own - I just don't know that you've been around golf long enough to really get what I mean.

Thats your comment I was responding to. Sounds a bit desperate to me, almost like an instructor trying to scare someone into taking lessons, dont ya think ?

There are no odds stacked against anyone. With thousands of instructional books and videos out there its just a matter of paying attention and learning.

Quote:

If you were as good as you say you are, why can't you learn to putt?

Did you actually think this would work ?

Ive been doing this 90 days, friend, and there is no putting green at the range down the street. Ive mainly worked on my LONG game and had only course time to practice my putting.

Making sense ?

Quote:

Do you know how many times I've told someone to "keep their eye on the ball through impact"? Zero. Do you know how many times I've ever heard a good instructor tell a student to do this? Zero.

And do you know how many OTHER resources say to keep your eye on the ball?

So what YOU have had to do or not had to do is irrelevant.

I read Jack Nicklaus book that very  clearly said to keep your eye on the ball and even told how old Jack did it.

Do I believe a tournament winner or some guy making claims on the web that I dont know

Quote:

I don't think you've gotten as far as you think you've gotten.

1, Since you dont know me I really dont care what you think.

2. When a par four means I need to be on in two and I can get on in two...eh...seems like Ive gotten somewhere

Quote:

This thread has taken a turn for the silly. It's very similar to these threads where people talk about shooting 90 but hitting their driver 350 yards. Except this one is less likely than that, because some people just have speed.

I suggest you pay attention because Ive made no outlandish claims here.

In fact Ive been very honest about my putting sucking at this point and shooting 100 for the round on average.

Im not interested in lessons. I didnt come here to have lessons pushed on me or to be told I cant learn to play the game casually without them.

I came here for friendly discussion and if thats not going to be possible there are thousands of other golf forums just like this one I can head to.

Quote:

GFF, perhaps it's time to put up or shut up (on this thread): post a "My Swing" thread with some good video of your swing. Let's see it. You can tell us not to comment, but if it's good, we'll be happy to tell you that, too.

This presumes that I CARE if you believe me or not.

Very sincerely I DONT.

I didnt come here to impress you or anyone else, but to ask questions and get some feedback on things.

Im not obligated to prove or show you anything.

Questions can be ASKED and ANSWERS given without you knowing a single thing about me personally, isnt that correct?

Quote:

He doesn't.

Im sorry but that is YOUR assumption.

You dont know me from Adam so you are in no position to make any such claim and even making it like this youve proven that your judgment cannot be trusted as it is entirely based in bias and emotion rather than fact, logic and reason.

Again, and for the last time, I am NOT interested in lessons. *I* am content with *MY* game at this point given its been 3 months and Im sorry if you or anyone else here cant handle that fact.

I hope we are done with this point.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Quote:

Do you know how many times I've told someone to "keep their eye on the ball through impact"? Zero. Do you know how many times I've ever heard a good instructor tell a student to do this? Zero.

Quote:

The ability to keep your eye on the ball during your golf swing helps keep your mind focused on the task at hand . It also helps with the hand-eye coordination necessary to a solid golf shot. Many golfers try to keep their head still to keep their eye on the ball, but that isn't possible, "Golf Illustrated" magazine reports, because your head is attached to your shoulders, and your shoulders are turning. There are, however, ways to keep your eyes on the ball with every shot.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/172204-how-to-keep-your-eye-on-the-ball-in-a-golf-swing/#ixzz1dhAD18Rd

Huh...imagine that.

Keeping ones eye on the ball actually has some PURPOSE in the golf swing

Quote:

“Keep the eyes steady and the body will stay steady. Golf is a hand/eye coordination sport. So if the eyes are looking at the proper target, the brain will tell the hands where to go.

http://www.golfaid.com/2010/03/07/dramatically-improve-your-golf-ball-striking-with-eye-targeting

Quote:

Keep you eye on the ball. Normally when we say that in conjunction with a sport many people think of baseball. True, that is a major requirement to succeeding at that sport. That catch phrase also applies to tennis, football, basketball and many others to a certain degree, but in my mind no other sport truly lives or dies by the saying of, "keep your eye on the ball".

" Keeping your eye on the golf ball is important no matter what club you're using to hit your ball and it is also terrain immaterial. If you're in the sand traps you must keep your eye on the ball, if you're hitting out of the rough, you must keep your eye on the ball. The whole object is channel 100 percent of your energies into focusing on your golf ball so that you can successfully score a solid hit with your golf club.

"Most golfers make mistakes as a result of taking their eye of the golf ball at some point during their golf swing. In order to improve your golf game you need to fight the natural instinct to look away from your golf ball. Master this task and you will soon become the envy of all your golfing buddies.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/183774

Also;

http://mcgolfsblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/keep-your-eye-on-ball.html

http://golfgurls.com/golf-essentials-1-keeping-your-dominant-eye-on-the-ball/