Does President Obama play too much Golf?

[phan52]

Originally Posted by David in FL

You seem to be having trouble understanding the whole "choice" thing......

So, you should have a choice on whether to have health insurance? Even if you can afford it?

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Joakim

Nevermind it ain't worth my time. I do agree we need a government contracted health insurance to allow competition to the abusive medical charging practices, i.e. Canada and the UK.

Obama care won't work until then. Maybe we need to divert some of that 680 Billion Federal Military budget to this endeavor. Or we just start another war so we can make use of the most Federal expenses since WWII.

In the interim I guess I'll just sign my check over to ACME insurance and eat leaches for dinner.

Joakim, you're exactly right that we need more comprehensive medical reform, though.  Most other countries realized a long time ago how immoral it was for someone to try to profit off of the sick and injured.  Once healthcare organizations realized that people will pay virtually anything for their health (and their relatives' health), they started gradually upping charges and as long as the demand didn't drop off, they kept making more money.  Then the lawyers got involved.  They saw an opportunity to make money so they started suing for more and more money every time someone's health was damaged and the amounts in those lawsuits started increasing and kept increasing.

Unlike other aspects of the free market, supply and demand laws don't work quite the same in healthcare.  Add to that the "price fixing" that healthcare organizations use.  It's just like what would happen if all the gas stations in your area decided to start charging $10 a gallon for gas.

Healthcare used to be a field that people went into because they wanted to give back to their community, NOT for the money.  It was like teaching is today.  Or public service.  Or the military.  Somewhere along the way we decided that it's perfectly okay to profit from someone else's illness and injury.  That's pretty sick, if you ask me.

Several things need to be done.  We need tort reform and limits placed on lawsuits.  Seriously, you don't need $50 million dollars just because your face was mangled from the elective plastic surgery you had.  This will help some.  But we also need to find a way to bring down costs, and the best way to do that in a free market economy is competition.  If we had a government non-profit contractor like TRICARE available for everyone, we could easily drive the costs of civilian insurance down because they'd be forced to decrease their rates in order to compete.

Originally Posted by David in FL

I agree, we need fewer leaches. A good start would be to require that everyone who works pay at least some federal income tax. Right now nearly half do not. Our current welfare system is in desperate need of reform too. The current system is replete with leeches, the vast majority of which will be voting for Obama, if they can actually be troubled to vote at all.

The only thing "you" are taking away from the rest of us, is individual freedom with personal responsibility. You're intent on replacing it with a socialist nanny state that can force someone to purchase a product whether they want to or not. That's sad.

Fortunately, you represent a real minority in our armed forces. Most of us are proud to have served and fought for the very type of freedoms that you want so badly to take away.

You're right, everyone should be paying income taxes.  And all income should be treated equally no matter the source.  The dollars someone receives from an investment are worth just as much as the dollars I get from my job, so why do investors get to pay only 14% on Capital Gains?  Guess what...my job was an investment.  I went to school, I paid for education/training, I put a lot of time, effort and MONEY into my investment.  If some moron thinks that his "investment" should be taxed at 14% while my "investment" should be taxed at 20% and then whines about how it's no fair that I want to raise his taxes, well tough titties.

Obviously the very poor who barely make enough to pay for rent and groceries can't quite pay the same percentage as other people.  So there have to be deductions based on how much it costs to live.  You can't live in 80% of a house.  But I agree there are far too many deductions when you have 47% of Americans who don't pay any taxes.  This needs to be fixed, as well.

Personally I would love a flat tax.  You'd have standard "cost of living" deduction and everything left over (disposable income) would be taxed at a flat rate across the board.

As for the freedoms I want to take away, you don't know what you're talking about.  You shouldn't have a freedom to be a leech.  You shouldn't have a freedom to be on Welfare simply because you choose not to work.

You show that you can't handle personal responsibility when you choose not to get health insurance.  I don't live in a world where we enjoy rewarding people who can't handle personal responsibility.  We can't just kick you out of the country for being a leech, but we can make your life unpleasant by making you pay fines when you try to suck the money out of other hard-working Americans.

You don't have a freedom, much less a RIGHT to choose to be a leech.  And like I said, after you prove that you possess the power to CHOOSE not to get sick or injured, we can let you CHOOSE to not get insurance.  As long as you're human, that's not going to happen.

[phan52]

We need a one payer system. The amount of money the markets make on healthcare is obscene. Healthcare is not a commodity, yet the market systems treat it as such. The only people who should be making money on healtchare are doctors, hospitals and entrepreneurs who come up with new treatments.

Obamacare uses market systems as much as anything we've ever had in place. When I hear people call it socialism I have to laugh at the irony. It's just another way of passing on profits to the insurance companies.

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by phan52

Well, there you go. Seriously dude. $200 million dollars a day. Do you have a functioning brain? Can you think for yourself?

Fact Government admitted 10-12 ships accompanied him on the ten day trip. Fact: Admitted at  least 840 USA contingent at Taj Mahal. Dude, maybe it was only 100 mil. a day. I don't know,

Fact, what came into question was this the best time (2009) for this expense? I can't honestly state what it costs for the above government admitted detachment.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by phan52

We need a one payer system. The amount of money the markets make on healthcare is obscene. Healthcare is not a commodity, yet the market systems treat it as such. The only people who should be making money on healtchare are doctors, hospitals and entrepreneurs who come up with new treatments.

Obamacare uses market systems as much as anything we've ever had in place. When I hear people call it socialism I have to laugh at the irony. It's just another way of passing on profits to the insurance companies.

I see nothing wrong with people providing healthcare at reasonable costs.  But when there's a nationwide effort to artificially inflate costs in order to increase profit because they know we'll always choose debt over death, it's time to rethink the ethics of the industry.

I don't believe in letting a small group pay for everyone, though.

Personal responsibility still needs to be the focus, otherwise the number of leeches will just increase.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Joakim

Fact Government admitted 10-12 ships accompanied him on the ten day trip. Fact: Admitted at  least 840 USA contingent at Taj Mahal. Dude, maybe it was only 100 mil. a day. I don't know,

Fact, what came into question was this the best time (2009) for this expense? I can't honestly state what it costs for the above government admitted detachment.

Do you have a reference?  Maybe that would help.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by dave67az

...

You're right, everyone should be paying income taxes.  And all income should be treated equally no matter the source.  The dollars someone receives from an investment are worth just as much as the dollars I get from my job, so why do investors get to pay only 14% on Capital Gains?

Because any money they used to invest has already had income taxes paid on it once, when they first earned it. When you pay capital gains, you're paying a second tax on that money. So it's a completely different, additional tax.

Also, investments are a big part of creating and growing businesses. The theory is that having the lower tax rate on that second time the money is taxed helps with incenting people to invest, which helps jobs/economy.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by David in FL

You don't see the difference between a law that prohibits driving at an unsafe speed and one that forces you to purchase a product that you may not want?

What's the difference? In both cases it's "government" telling me what I can and cannot do, right? And in both cases, it's my choice to not comply - I can choose to not buy health insurance & get fined or I can choose not to abide by the speed limits & get fined. Both are laws with consequences for not abiding to.

Now sure, driving at an unsafe speed is potentially dangerous, thus the law. Just as not having health is fiscally dangerous. And I think most rational people agree that health insurance is a need. If you view it as a 'want' you're being reckless...just like with speeding.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Joakim

Fact Government admitted 10-12 ships accompanied him on the ten day trip. Fact: Admitted at  least 840 USA contingent at Taj Mahal. Dude, maybe it was only 100 mil. a day. I don't know,

Fact, what came into question was this the best time (2009) for this expense? I can't honestly state what it costs for the above government admitted detachment.

Nobody said that ANY ships acoompanied the trip. Nobody except an unverafied source in India, that Drudge, Limabaugh and Michelle Bachmann took as fact and ran with it. Journalism, my a$$.

If you have half a brain you would realize the trips like that are more like $2-3 million a day. If that. And he was going to a G2 meeting, not a vacation. But I suppose you prefer the leader of the most powerful country in the world not go to things like that.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by dave67az

I see nothing wrong with people providing healthcare at reasonable costs.  But when there's a nationwide effort to artificially inflate costs in order to increase profit because they know we'll always choose debt over death, it's time to rethink the ethics of the industry.

I don't believe in letting a small group pay for everyone, though.

Personal responsibility still needs to be the focus, otherwise the number of leeches will just increase.

Small group? WTF are you talking about? Over 250 million people in this country pay for some form of health insurance.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Because any money they used to invest has already had income taxes paid on it once, when they first earned it. When you pay capital gains, you're paying a second tax on that money. So it's a completely different, additional tax.

Also, investments are a big part of creating and growing businesses. The theory is that having the lower tax rate on that second time the money is taxed helps with incenting people to invest, which helps jobs/economy.

Well guess what...the money I make from my job was the result of an education investment that I paid taxes on.

Investments that GENERATE INCOME are no different than jobs.  Money is money.  For some egotistical corporate-type to think that his "investment" should be worth more than my "investment" is pretty arrogant.  We've BOTH paid taxes on the path to our success.

What...now you're going to tell me that the money I've spent along the way to get to the level of success I currently have isn't worth as much as some brat who got his from a trust fund?  Really?

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by phan52

Small group? WTF are you talking about? Over 250 million people in this country pay for some form of health insurance.

What I meant was that we all need to pay something and we shouldn't have 47% of people not paying for their health insurance while the other 53% pays the costs for everyone.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Joakim

Fact Government admitted 10-12 ships accompanied him on the ten day trip. Fact: Admitted at  least 840 USA contingent at Taj Mahal. Dude, maybe it was only 100 mil. a day. I don't know,

Fact, what came into question was this the best time (2009) for this expense? I can't honestly state what it costs for the above government admitted detachment.

Okay, you didn't find a reference so I found one for you.

Unfortunately it shows you were wrong on the $200-million-per-day thing.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/11/ask-factcheck-trip-to-mumbai/

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Because any money they used to invest has already had income taxes paid on it once, when they first earned it. When you pay capital gains, you're paying a second tax on that money. So it's a completely different, additional tax.

Also, investments are a big part of creating and growing businesses. The theory is that having the lower tax rate on that second time the money is taxed helps with incenting people to invest, which helps jobs/economy.

Incidentally, you are NOT paying an additional tax on your investment.  You're paying a tax on the INCOME from that investment.  If you invest $5000, and withdraw $5000, you pay no taxes.  Why is it so difficult for people in this country to do math?

[phan52]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Because any money they used to invest has already had income taxes paid on it once, when they first earned it. When you pay capital gains, you're paying a second tax on that money. So it's a completely different, additional tax.

Also, investments are a big part of creating and growing businesses. The theory is that having the lower tax rate on that second time the money is taxed helps with incenting people to invest, which helps jobs/economy.

Please, stop with the trickle down nonsense. That has been debunked over the last 30 years.

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by dave67az .

You don't have a freedom, much less a RIGHT to choose to be a leech.  And like I said, after you prove that you possess the power to CHOOSE not to get sick or injured, we can let you CHOOSE to not get insurance.  As long as you're human, that's not going to happen.

Dave, You put up a clear and coherent opinion, UNTIL the last statement. I did not choose to get plowed into my car by some Frickin idiot that was texting at 75 miles an hour on my way to work.

However, what you don't realize is that going through disability, while not working, you are placed on Cobra Insurance that at that time was discontinued after one year.

Then you are on your own with the independant insurance prices I stated above. Maybe your not familiar with how little amount of money you get by being on disability and the diffulties while trying to raise a family while your permanately injured.

How much does the military pay if injured while in service? Do they discontinue your insurance?

[phan52]

Originally Posted by dave67az

What I meant was that we all need to pay something and we shouldn't have 47% of people not paying for their health insurance while the other 53% pays the costs for everyone.

What are you talking about? Are you trying to say that 47% of Americans don't pay for their healthcare? Please, don't tell me that is what you are saying.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by dave67az

Incidentally, you are NOT paying an additional tax on your investment.  You're paying a tax on the INCOME from that investment.  If you invest $5000, and withdraw $5000, you pay no taxes.  Why is it so difficult for people in this country to do math?

They don't know how to think for themselves. It is amazing the number of people who vote against their better interests because of boogiemen presented by the right wing.