Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[camper6]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Exactly.

I won't go into my long-winded opinion about this specific matter, but the biggest problem I find with legislative/governing bodies and commission who attempt to legislate rules regarding technology, is that the people on the governing bodies themselves are most often times clueless as to the technology they are dealing with (SOPA, and DRM on handheld devices comes to mind).   I don't know that people realize how impractical these rulings can be.  But this is what happens when the vast majority of the bodies are technophobes to begin with.

Brandon

But then they are trying to preserve the 'tradition' of golf as much as they can.

When they get overwhelmed with technology they often have to cave in.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by camper6

But then they are trying to preserve the 'tradition' of golf as much as they can.

When they get overwhelmed with technology they often have to cave in.

Hasn't the tradition of golf been to make rules to prohibit cheating and allow the players, for the most part, to self-police themselves on the "honor" system?  Isn't this a game of moral integrity?

If a committee is getting overwhelmed with technology, they absolutely cannot take an archaic stance to simply ban as much technology as possible, they have to become agile and adapt their committee to be able to function with technology as they bring in people who understand it.  Allowing people who can barely open their email to make technological-based decisions is foolish.

Brandon

[newtogolf]

Do you know for a fact that the USGA and the rules committee is full of people that can "barely open their email" or are you making the assumption because you disagree with their decision?

If it was feasible to ban SmartPhones from any use on a golf course, they probably would, but they don't want to enact such a rule and risk losing more golfers from the sport thus closing down more golf courses and clubs.  The USGA has been consistent in not allowing DMD's that measure slope, include a compass, altimeter or report weather conditions to be used during tournament or official play.  Any Rangefinders that provide slope measurement are banned even if the feature is disabled.  If you look at the dedicated GPS devices none (that I am aware of) provide the banned features.

The decision as I see it has nothing to do with their understanding of technology it has to do with consistency, if they allow SmartPhones with compass and slope measurement apps they have to allow the Rangefinders that are currently banned as well.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Hasn't the tradition of golf been to make rules to prohibit cheating and allow the players, for the most part, to self-police themselves on the "honor" system?  Isn't this a game of moral integrity?

If a committee is getting overwhelmed with technology, they absolutely cannot take an archaic stance to simply ban as much technology as possible, they have to become agile and adapt their committee to be able to function with technology as they bring in people who understand it.  Allowing people who can barely open their email to make technological-based decisions is foolish.

Brandon

[camper6]

Hasn't the tradition of golf been to make rules to prohibit cheating and allow the players, for the most part, to self-police themselves on the "honor" system?  Isn't this a game of moral integrity?

The tradition of golf hasn't been only to make rules to prohibit cheating.  Otherwise the rule book would be size of one page.

I wouldn't say most but many, many players have only a rudimentary knowledge of the rules so how can they truly police themselves by the honor system.

And it's the same thing with the discussion we are having here.

How many golfers are there out there that have no idea that a smart phone could be illegal.

That's why they try to make the rules and that's why it's so tough on the rules makers.

Just watch the flak when a player is told he can't use the GPS system on his smart phone because of the other apps.

Who is going to tell the player?

[newtogolf]

Most likely a small percentage will know or care that they can't use their Golf GPS on their SmartPhone, but by that same notion, I don't think a high percentage of golfers play in tournaments or even keep an official handicap so it's not really an issue until they do.

I don't play in tournaments yet, so I wouldn't tell someone unless it was a friend or someone asked me.

Originally Posted by camper6

How many golfers are there out there that have no idea that a smart phone could be illegal.

That's why they try to make the rules and that's why it's so tough on the rules makers.

Just watch the flak when a player is told he can't use the GPS system on his smart phone because of the other apps.

Who is going to tell the player?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The decision as I see it has nothing to do with their understanding of technology it has to do with consistency, if they allow SmartPhones with compass and slope measurement apps they have to allow the Rangefinders that are currently banned as well.

Ah, but they *do* allow smart phones with compass, slope, weather, and any other advantage-providing app you can think of. The rules apparently trust you to not use those apps.  You can use the phone for whatever legal purpose you want - calls, text, surf the web, play Angry Birds... but, the one thing you can't do is use it as a distance measuring device. Apparently once you do that, all of a sudden you cannot be trusted to not also use the compass, slope, or weather features. Does that make sense to you?

Consistency? If the rules banned all smart phones, *that* would be consistent (but draconian of course). If they allowed use of any and all apps (including slope, weather, etc.), *that* would be consistent (but too lenient of course). If they allowed any type of distance measuring feature that is also legal on a standalone device, *that* would be consistent (and the only option I can think of that makes any sense, IMO). If they allowed phones with slope apps and also allowed rangefinders with slope features, *that* would be consistent (not in favor of that). BUT, the rules don't do any of that. Instead they say, "If your phone has any illegal apps, then we trust you to use the phone for some things without being tempted to use the illegal apps. But if you use if for a DMD, we don't trust you to not use the illegal apps."

Not consistent at all from where I'm standing, which is why I don't think this is a well thought out ruling. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction by a ruling body that may not completely understand smart phone technology.

[newtogolf]

XYZGolf App hits the streets tomorrow and it includes slope features.  After that 123Golf App is released and to 1-up their competition they include slope, wind direction, and club selection info based on your distances, slope, pin position, wind speed and direction.  Soon every other Golf GPS app adds these features but allows you to change the settings to enable or disable.

You have to think the SmartPhone issue for the USGA all the way through.  The USGA can't be in the business of monitoring the feature set of every GPS app that's released for every phone OS to determine which apps are approved and which are not.  Also how would one know if someone is using a Golf GPS app with illegal features turned on?  By banning SmartPhones as DMD's they get out from under this mess just as they have determined that any RangeFinder with slope measurement cannot be used in a tournament.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Ah, but they *do* allow smart phones with compass, slope, weather, and any other advantage-providing app you can think of. The rules apparently trust you to not use those apps.  You can use the phone for whatever legal purpose you want - calls, text, surf the web, play Angry Birds... but, the one thing you can't do is use it as a distance measuring device. Apparently once you do that, all of a sudden you cannot be trusted to not also use the compass, slope, or weather features. Does that make sense to you?

Consistency? If the rules banned all smart phones, *that* would be consistent (but draconian of course). If they allowed use of any and all apps (including slope, weather, etc.), *that* would be consistent (but too lenient of course). If they allowed any type of distance measuring feature that is also legal on a standalone device, *that* would be consistent (and the only option I can think of that makes any sense, IMO). If they allowed phones with slope apps and also allowed rangefinders with slope features, *that* would be consistent (not in favor of that). BUT, the rules don't do any of that. Instead they say, "If your phone has any illegal apps, then we trust you to use the phone for some things without being tempted to use the illegal apps. But if you use if for a DMD, we don't trust you to not use the illegal apps."

Not consistent at all from where I'm standing, which is why I don't think this is a well thought out ruling. It smacks of a knee-jerk reaction by a ruling body that may not completely understand smart phone technology.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

XYZGolf App hits the streets tomorrow and it includes slope features.  After that 123Golf App is released and to 1-up their competition they include slope, wind direction, and club selection info based on your distances, slope, pin position, wind speed and direction.  Soon every other Golf GPS app adds these features but allows you to change the settings to enable or disable.

You have to think the SmartPhone issue for the USGA all the way through.  The USGA can't be in the business of monitoring the feature set of every GPS app that's released for every phone OS to determine which apps are approved and which are not.  Also how would one know if someone is using a Golf GPS app with illegal features turned on?  By banning SmartPhones as DMD's they get out from under this mess just as they have determined that any RangeFinder with slope measurement cannot be used in a tournament.

So your argument then is that all GPS apps must be banned since they might someday include features that give illegal advice?  But your smart phone already has those features if it has a compass or access to weather info, yet smart phones are not banned.  Obviously the rules as they exist now trust you to not use the compass or weather info. But they *don't* trust you to not use the compass or weather info if you happen to also be using the GPS app?  I still don't see the logic in that.

And if the USGA thinks the market exists for illegal features to make their way into GPS apps, what's to stop that from happening on the standalone GPS units?  They better just ban those now too, if that's their rationale.

[newtogolf]

Why do you extrapolate every argument into the absurd?  Can you not see the difference between a Golf GPS app that has illegal features and other apps?  Why doesn't the USGA trust me to use my Leupold GX-4 with the face plate that disables the slope feature?   If someone sees you using your compass or weather app you'll be disqualified, that's different some knowing if the Golf GPS app has banned features.

There's how many models of standalone GPS units, it would be very easy for them to determine which ones are legal and whice are not, just as they have done with RangeFinders.   You can't figure out that it's tougher to identify a banned device from a banned app?

I get it you don't like the rule, write to the USGA and tell them.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

So your argument then is that all GPS apps must be banned since they might someday include features that give illegal advice?  But your smart phone already has those features if it has a compass or access to weather info, yet smart phones are not banned.  Obviously the rules as they exist now trust you to not use the compass or weather info. But they *don't* trust you to not use the compass or weather info if you happen to also be using the GPS app?  I still don't see the logic in that.

And if the USGA thinks the market exists for illegal features to make their way into GPS apps, what's to stop that from happening on the standalone GPS units?  They better just ban those now too, if that's their rationale.

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Why do you extrapolate every argument into the absurd?

I honestly have no idea what you mean... I don't see anything absurd in my comments.

Quote:

Can you not see the difference between a Golf GPS app that has illegal features and other apps?  Why doesn't the USGA trust me to use my Leupold GX-4 with the face plate that disables the slope feature?   If someone sees you using your compass or weather app you'll be disqualified, that's different some knowing if the Golf GPS app has banned features.

There's how many models of standalone GPS units, it would be very easy for them to determine which ones are legal and whice are not, just as they have done with RangeFinders.   You can't figure out that it's tougher to identify a banned device from a banned app?

I do see the differences you mention, but they are not the point.

Let me try to state my position again: The USGA is fine with you using a legal GPS app on your phone as long as you also don't have any of the banned apps on the phone.  Sure, someone can look over your shoulder and see if you're using a GPS app on your phone, but they're not going to be able to tell if you've got one of the illegal apps installed.  Therefore, if we're using a GPS app, the rules and our playing partners are *trusting* us to not have any of those illegal apps installed.  If that's the case, why not trust us to just not use them if they *are* installed?

If anyone is getting into the realm of the absurd, it's you with your hypothetical "The USGA is preemptively guarding against the day when a GPS app will also have slope, weather, etc."  Again, if the USGA is worried about such a thing, they would be banning all GPS apps.  But they are not - they are only banning their use if other certain apps exist on your phone, and there is no way to verify whether those apps are installed simply by looking over someone's shoulder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I get it you don't like the rule, write to the USGA and tell them.

I have. The issue here though is that you're making arguments in this thread that I felt had counterarguments, so thought I'd respond. Nothing personal.

[newtogolf]

The USGA permitted the use of Rangefinders.  Then manufacturers added slope features to some of their models which required the USGA to rule on individual models.   Bushnell and Leupold as I'm sure others do have some models that are banned because they measure slope.  Then Leupold made a Rangefinder that could measure slope but had the feature disabled by using a special faceplate that was visually different from the faceplate that enabled the feature.  Leupold thought this would address the concerns of the USGA, it didn't.  Their ruling is if the device measures slope, it's illegal.  By your argument why shouldn't I be able to use the GX-4 with the faceplate that disables slope?

They are leaving the door open for SmartPhone and app makers who wish to make conforming devices to develop apps in the future rather than ban all Golf GPS apps.  Do I really need a SmartPhone with a built in compass, altimeter and weather app built into the device?  The current rule makes most SmartPhones used as DMD non-comforming for tournament play, but the rules are simple if SmartPhone manufacturers want to play in this market and offer conforming devices.

I believe the rule is in effect for the next 3 years so I think it's pretty forward thinking on their part to take such a position so that there's the potential in the future for golfers to use conforming SmartPhones with a Golf GPS app.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I do see the differences you mention, but they are not the point.

Let me try to state my position again: The USGA is fine with you using a legal GPS app on your phone as long as you also don't have any of the banned apps on the phone.  Sure, someone can look over your shoulder and see if you're using a GPS app on your phone, but they're not going to be able to tell if you've got one of the illegal apps installed.  Therefore, if we're using a GPS app, the rules and our playing partners are *trusting* us to not have any of those illegal apps installed.  If that's the case, why not trust us to just not use them if they *are* installed?

If anyone is getting into the realm of the absurd, it's you with your hypothetical "The USGA is preemptively guarding against the day when a GPS app will also have slope, weather, etc."  Again, if the USGA is worried about such a thing, they would be banning all GPS apps.  But they are not - they are only banning their use if other certain apps exist on your phone, and there is no way to verify whether those apps are installed simply by looking over someone's shoulder.

I have. The issue here though is that you're making arguments in this thread that I felt had counterarguments, so thought I'd respond. Nothing personal.

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The USGA permitted the use of Rangefinders.  Then manufacturers added slope features to some of their models which required the USGA to rule on individual models.   Bushnell and Leupold as I'm sure others do have some models that are banned because they measure slope.  Then Leupold made a Rangefinder that could measure slope but had the feature disabled by using a special faceplate that was visually different from the faceplate that enabled the feature.  Leupold thought this would address the concerns of the USGA, it didn't.  Their ruling is if the device measures slope, it's illegal.  By your argument why shouldn't I be able to use the GX-4 with the faceplate that disables slope?

The rangefinder situation has absolutely nothing to do with what my argument is. If I haven't made myself clear by now I don't suppose I ever will.

Quote:

They are leaving the door open for SmartPhone and app makers who wish to make conforming devices to develop apps in the future rather than ban all Golf GPS apps

Are you saying that smartphone makers are monitoring USGA rules as they come out, and as a result they are going to start making phones without built-in weather apps, to cater to the .0000001% of their customers who are tournament playing golfers that want to legally use a GPS app on the phone?

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

XYZGolf App hits the streets tomorrow and it includes slope features.  After that 123Golf App is released and to 1-up their competition they include slope, wind direction, and club selection info based on your distances, slope, pin position, wind speed and direction.  Soon every other Golf GPS app adds these features but allows you to change the settings to enable or disable.

You have to think the SmartPhone issue for the USGA all the way through.  The USGA can't be in the business of monitoring the feature set of every GPS app that's released for every phone OS to determine which apps are approved and which are not.  Also how would one know if someone is using a Golf GPS app with illegal features turned on?  By banning SmartPhones as DMD's they get out from under this mess just as they have determined that any RangeFinder with slope measurement cannot be used in a tournament.

The features don't have to be in the GPS app they are already built into the phones.  And according to the USGA it is perfectly OK for me to use my phone to make a call, with all of those evil built-in features on the phone, but not to use my DMD app on the exact same phone with the exact same evil built-in features.  THAT is the essence of the illogic of the USGA position.  Two different legal actions,  using a phone to make a call and using a phone as a DMD -- now put a prohibited feature on the phone and all of a sudden ONLY ONE of the previously legal actions becomes illegal.

As to your second point.  While I think it is sort of silly, since the prohibited features are on the phones, not the apps, if they WERE on the apps then yes, the USGA should be in the business of monitoring feature sets, just as it is in the business of monitoring ball launch speeds, and it is in the business of monitoring the COR of drivers, and it is in the business of monitoring the configuration of grooves on wedges.  Monitoring golf equipment is a big part of what they are in business to do.

Quote:

They are leaving the door open for SmartPhone and app makers who wish to make conforming devices to develop apps in the future rather than ban all Golf GPS apps

Really?  You think that smartphone makers are going to make special phones that conform to USGA rules for the thousandth of one percent of their customers who are golfers?  Do you even understand the fact that the problem is with the phones and their built-in features, NOT with DMD app makers sneaking in prohibited capabilities?

Quote:

Do you know for a fact that the USGA and the rules committee is full of people that can "barely open their email" or are you making the assumption because you disagree with their decision?

No I know that the USGA is technologically challenged because they do not seem to realize that virtually EVERY smartphone is going to have some feature build into it that invalidates it as a platform for a legal DMD app.

It is like when our local school board made a policy that kids can have cellphones on campus, but not ones that can text or take pictures.  They were technology idiots because they apparently did not know that you can't hardly buy a phone that doesn't have those capabilities.  So they created a policy that is unenforceable.

The USGA did the same thing.  You can use a DMD app on a smartphone but not on one that has built in capabilities that virtually every smartphone has.  And then to make it even more irrational, they still let you use the phone for non-DMD purposes EVEN THOUGH it has those built-in capabilities.

The USGA can do the gutsy and logically consistent thing:  ban all smartphone use for any purpose, including phone calls and texting if the phone has any prohibited feature.

The USGA can do the stupid and logically inconsistent thing:  the current policy.

The USGA can do the smart thing:   allow DMDs and prohibit use of any feature that gives prohibited information.  Which, frankly, is what they SHOULD have done with the rangefinders/slope issue, IMO.

They made a stupid  decision on the slope issue and now in some misguided sense of consistency they are compounding it with a stupid decision on smartphone DMD apps.  Demonstrating Ralph Waldo Emerson's quote: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds

[bplewis24]

Well said, turtle.

Brandon

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Well said, turtle.

Brandon

Thanks, Brandon.

[newtogolf]

This is my last post on this topic as it's clear we disagree and neither of us will change our minds, so we can agree to disagree,

With regards to the rangefinder, the analogy does apply.  All Rangefinders at one time were permitted by the USGA.  Rangefinder manufacturers looking to increase marketshare by adding features incorporated the ability for some of their models to measure slope.  The USGA was forced to react and ruled that all RangeFinders with the ability to measure slope were banned from Tournament play.

Leupold thought they found a loophole and created a device that ships with two different face plates, one to enable the feature the other to disable.  The USGA still does not permit the GX-4 for use in tournaments because it has the built in feature.  There's no other practical use for a Rangefinder other than to measure distance so there's no other reason to take out a banned rangefinder on a course.  The rule is clear, rangefinders with illegal capabilities are banned.

The USGA could not take the same approach with SmartPhones because there are other valid uses for SmartPhones (calls, texts, e-mail) so rather than ban the SmartPhone they banned it's use to measure distance (Golf GPS app) if they incorporated illegal features.  The ruling is consistent the only difference is that SmartPhones have other valid uses that makes it impractical to ban from a golf course where as slope reading rangefinders serve only the purpose of a DMD.

To make it simpler for you guys the rules breaks down as simply as this:

Device includes Illegal features = banned for use as DMD in tournaments

Device doesn't include illegal features = permitted to use as DMD in tournaments

Nothing else you say can dispute the consistency in that the USGA's ruling as it relates to controlling use of DMD on a golf course for rangefinders and smartphones.  I wish you all luck in getting the rule changed with the USGA.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The rangefinder situation has absolutely nothing to do with what my argument is. If I haven't made myself clear by now I don't suppose I ever will.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Nothing else you say can dispute the consistency in that the USGA's ruling as it relates to controlling use of DMD on a golf course for rangefinders and smartphones.

This just couldn't be more contradictory to even your own logic, but seeing as how you've already stated that you won't change your mind on it, I guess there's no reason to point it out?

Brandon

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

With regards to the rangefinder, the analogy does apply.  All Rangefinders at one time were permitted by the USGA.  Rangefinder manufacturers looking to increase marketshare by adding features incorporated the ability for some of their models to measure slope.  The USGA was forced to react and ruled that all RangeFinders with the ability to measure slope were banned from Tournament play.

FWIW, I'm not sure "All Rangefinders at one time were permitted by the USGA" is right. I'm almost certain it's not. Measuring slope has always been illegal. Distances have, for 50+ years, been considered common knowledge (and not "advice").

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Device includes Illegal features = banned for use as DMD in tournaments

Device doesn't include illegal features = permitted to use as DMD in tournaments

That's true, but I still think you mis-spoke when you talked earlier about smart phone manufacturers releasing devices for golfers. That ain't gonna happen.