Shopping for a new putter

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I'm sure Edel makes a good putter.  So do a lot of companies. Some will sell for $400, and some will sell for less than $100. Whether any of them become a lifetime putter will depend upon whether one is successful using it. Granted that a perfectly fit putter would probably be more likely to help one's putting than a poorly fit one, without a decent stroke and the ability to correctly read greens there won't be any improvement.

I don't think you understand.

Edel makes the putter to fit YOU. Big difference.

It begins with your ability to aim, followed by every aspect of the putter - head, sight lines, offset, weight, shaft, counterbalance, length, grip, etc.

It's not the same as a "lot of companies."

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Why not just get fitted for a $100 putter?  Does all that customized stamping and gizmos help you make more putts?  Id definetly agree with you about getting fitted but I wouldnt advise anyone to go out and spend $300+ on ANY putter.

Id love to have a custom Never Compromise Gambler.  Theyre a beautiful forged putter but again, its not going to help you make more putts.

One of the guys in my golf league has an Edel putter and its a beautiful club.  He let me try it out on the practice green when he first got it and its a nice putter but I wouldnt call it anything special or much different than what any of the other high-end putter manufacturers are doing.  The variable loft, variable weights and other gizmos are cool but in the end, it all comes down to having a reliable stroke.

Id still go out and spend $100 and get fitted for a putter and spend the other $200 on putting lessons.

I don't think you understand.

OEMs won't fit you to a custom putter.

Do you need it?

Heck, I'd go through at least 2 putters a year. Got my Edel and haven't looked at another putter in over three years... the money saved, putts made, and confidence ... is priceless.

It's not about what looks good and sexy to your eye. It's about what you can aim straight and is fit to your standards so you don't need to make unconscious compensations.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I agree that people who putt badly tend to accumulate putters.  That's due to their constantly seeking that one magical putter that will overcome their terrible stroke, or their inability to correctly read greens, or both. Good putters (whether in reality or in their own mind)  tend to keep the putter that they feel good about.

So do good putters. And part of the reason people have a terrible stroke is often because they can't aim their putter and/or that it's weighted incorrectly.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I'm sure Edel makes a good putter.  So do a lot of companies. Some will sell for $400, and some will sell for less than $100. Whether any of them become a lifetime putter will depend upon whether one is successful using it. Granted that a perfectly fit putter would probably be more likely to help one's putting than a poorly fit one, without a decent stroke and the ability to correctly read greens there won't be any improvement.

I feel like you're being contrary just for the sake of being contrary. Which is fine - I'll do that from time to time.

Edel doesn't just make a good putter. It makes a custom putter you get after going through an extensive fitting process. Their putters are lifetime putters because, barring quite literally brain or eye injury, or some other traumatic injury that affects your setup to a huge degree, you'll pretty much fit into one putter your whole life because that's the putter you can aim.

I said before that people who have terrible strokes often have it because of their putters, and what I mean by that is this. If you aim your putter left, you'll tend to develop a very "pushy" stroke. If you aim your putter right, you'll tend to develop a stroke that's highly dependent on letting the toe rotate through. Your aim bias will also screw with your ability to read putts.

You bet, someone might "luck into" a putter that they can both aim properly and with which they can control the distance (though that's unlikely, given that virtually everyone we've fit does better with heavier putters than standard). We "fit" one guy who brought six putters he owned. Four he aimed terribly. One was okay. One was great and with the lead weight he'd added his distance control was perfect. We told him "keep using that putter" (it happened to be a Cameron). So yeah, I agree - a $100 putter might fit someone better than a $300 putter. But a $350 putter from Edel will always fit the individual better than a putter available at any price off the rack.

People whose putters fit them remove a variable from the equation. If they are off, their stroke is off. It makes it much simpler to find and fix the problem, because "can I aim?" is removed from the equation (as is "how's my speed control?").

Also, people who buy putters that are fit for them develop better putting strokes. Why? Same idea as the full swing: they need to make less compensations . For example, Dave's dad shoved the heck out of everything. Why? He aimed left all his life. He used various Anser-style putters, his latest a Cameron, with a shaft or so of offset, lines, etc. He was fit into a no-offset mallet with nothing more than a sight dot. He aims it perfectly. The first 30 putts he hit with it all missed right. Why? Because he was trying to use his old "push" stroke. But the next 30 were pretty good, and the next 30 after that were incredible. His stroke was visibly improved.

Dave's dad had always putted the left-to-right breaking putts well because he aimed left and simply didn't shove the putt quite as much. The right-to-lefters were tough for him - he had to either shove it a LOT or give it too much speed for an effective capture speed. Now breaking putts are of no consequence to him regardless of their direction - he chooses his spot and makes his stroke, and he's confident he's both lined up and will deliver the ball on that line.

Aim bias is a nasty thing. And I didn't even talk about weight affecting distance control much.

Tiger aims 4° right with his putter(s) since 1998 or so. That's why he is always talking about "releasing the toe." When he doesn't get much time to practice and get the timing spot on, he putts terribly as we've seen the past few years. If you have three hours a day four days a week to work on your putting, great, but most people don't. Most people, IMO, are better served getting a putter they can aim.

It's all about reducing the need for compensations.

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Why not just get fitted for a $100 putter?  Does all that customized stamping and gizmos help you make more putts?  Id definetly agree with you about getting fitted but I wouldnt advise anyone to go out and spend $300+ on ANY putter.

You don't seem to understand or appreciate the Edel fitting process. The stampings (which are basically free) have nothing to do with it. Simply put, you can't really get fit for a $100 putter.

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Id love to have a custom Never Compromise Gambler.  Theyre a beautiful forged putter but again, its not going to help you make more putts.

To be clear, I'm talking about fully fitted putters, not just "custom" stampings, paint fills, etc. No, a "custom" putter is not going to help you do anything if that's all there is to it. A "fitted" putter - even without any of the free stampings or paint fills (etc.), will help you tremendously.

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

One of the guys in my golf league has an Edel putter and its a beautiful club.  He let me try it out on the practice green when he first got it and its a nice putter but I wouldnt call it anything special or much different than what any of the other high-end putter manufacturers are doing.

That putter wasn't fit for you. Of course there's nothing "special" about it to a stranger. What's "special" about it is that it's 100% custom FIT for the player. Edel putters are not made of gold or something - their value is in the fitting.

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

The variable loft, variable weights and other gizmos are cool but in the end, it all comes down to having a reliable stroke.

Id still go out and spend $100 and get fitted for a putter and spend the other $200 on putting lessons.

And the point remains that it's far more difficult to develop a "reliable stroke" when your stroke has compensations built in to account for your aim and/or distance control tendencies.

I find it odd that the same people who obsess over driver fittings - an act (driving) which occurs at most about 14 times during the round and which provides targets 30+ yards wide in many cases - couldn't care less about putter fittings - an act (putting) which occurs about 30 times in a round (at least 18 of which tend to be outside of tap-in range) and which has a required precision of about 3 inches.

And lest someone think there's some sort of financial bias for me here, there isn't, because none of you are coming to Erie to buy a putter. We are Edel fitters because we've seen the fitting process work, the science and logic behind it make sense and have proven themselves, and because we want golfers to be happier and better. Poo-poo truly custom-fit putters all you want, but odds are you can't aim your putter nearly as well as you think you can AND it's affecting your stroke.

And again, you can't really be "fit" for a $100 putter. You might luck into one, but that's not a "fitting."

Okay then. Wore out the soapbox for the day. Golf is on now.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by iacas

Tiger aims 4° right with his putter(s) since 1998 or so. That's why he is always talking about "releasing the toe." When he doesn't get much time to practice and get the timing spot on, he putts terribly as we've seen the past few years. If you have three hours a day four days a week to work on your putting, great, but most people don't. Most people, IMO, are better served getting a putter they can aim.

It's all about reducing the need for compensations.

Okay then. Wore out the soapbox for the day.  Golf is on now.

And Tiger can't read a green yet (early Sunday), or maybe his aim is "off."

[Harmonious]

To Mr. Desmond:  Yes, I DO understand.  You are a fan of Edel putters. I'm interested, have you quantified how much better of a putter  you become?

To Erik: I am not being contrary just to be contrary.  You insinuated strongly, if not outright said, that unless someone bought an Edel putter at $400, they were wasting their money.  I disagree with that statement. If someone does their homework so they know the correct putter length and lie angle that works best for them, then there are lots of putters on the market that would work for them, and would not be a waste of money.

The point I was making, which you are both free to disagree with, is that a custom-fit putter will not automatically make a good putter out of a bad one.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

To Mr. Desmond:  Yes, I DO understand.  You are a fan of Edel putters. I'm interested, have you quantified how much better of a putter  you become?

I think he made a bigger point than "He's a fan," and it's disingenuous to pretend that's all he said.

And asking for quantification is pointless. He could say he's improved three strokes a round and you could say he's simply hitting it closer, or he's improved his green reading, or he's put extra time into practicing his stroke.

Empirically, we've had one guy who aimed his putter of the many, many we've fit inside the hole from 6-8 feet. And that was only with one of the five putters he brought. If you can't aim your putter where you think you're aiming, you'll make compensations in your stroke to try to push or pull the ball on its line. That's logical.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

To Erik: I am not being contrary just to be contrary.  You insinuated strongly, if not outright said, that unless someone bought an Edel putter at $400, they were wasting their money. I disagree with that statement. If someone does their homework so they know the correct putter length and lie angle that works best for them, then there are lots of putters on the market that would work for them, and would not be a waste of money.

If I'm only insinuating it then I'm failing to say it outright enough. It's clear by what you're saying that you don't understand how extensive an Edel fitting is. Suffice to say it's a HELL of a lot more than "length and lie angle."

Fitting only length and lie angle for a putter is like fitting length and lie angle for a driver and not caring about anything else. Would someone buying a driver solely based on length and lie angle be wasting their money? Uhm…

Originally Posted by Harmonious

The point I was making, which you are both free to disagree with, is that a custom-fit putter will not automatically make a good putter out of a bad one.

Straw man. Nobody said that. A putter not fit for you is an impediment to getting better.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

To Mr. Desmond:  Yes, I DO understand.  You are a fan of Edel putters.

A custom-fit putter will not automatically make a good putter out of a bad one.

1. You've got to be kidding. Is that what you took from the post,  there are none so blind as those ...

2. My issues on the course are not with the putter. If you want to see someone that approximates my putting stroke, see patobriengolf.com

3. The Edels are not for everyone. Some people don't like a putter to pick them, and that's what occurs with an Edel fitting (sort of). The data and feedback tells the fitter what you need.

It helps in the fitting if your putting setup and stroke are consistent.

But some people want something to blame other than themselves. I would not suggest an Edel if you want to point fingers other than directly at yourself.

Good luck.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

It helps in the fitting if your putting setup and stroke are consistent.

But some people want something to blame other than themselves. I would not suggest an Edel if you want to point fingers other than directly at yourself.

If I miss a putt, it is not the putter's fault.  It is mine. Fortunately, my putter fits me well (as measured for loft and lie only, sorry). Through better mechanics and paying more attention to green reading (thanks to Aimpoint and Vector information online) that I have been able to drop putts per round and putts per GIR.

Look, I'm not knocking Edel putters in any way. All I'm saying is that you need a consistent stroke. Unless your setup and stroke (and you are able to read greens decently) are solid, making putts will always be a challenge, no matter what wrench you use.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

If I miss a putt, it is not the putter's fault.  It is mine. Fortunately, my putter fits me well (as measured for loft and lie only, sorry).

You don't seem to know that your putter fits you well. There's a lot more to being fit for a putter than loft and lie. You might aim the thing four inches left from six feet and shove all of your putts. You might do "okay" with that, but you're still compensating (in this hypothetical).

Phil's swing isn't taught to anyone. It's full of compensations. When his timing is good, he shoots 64 and wins easily. When it's off, he MCs and looks lost like a few weeks ago.

Tiger still probably aims his putter right. He talked today about how he couldn't feel the proper "release" with his putter. When he was on, he made everything. When he's off, he misses from 26 inches. :-P

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Look, I'm not knocking Edel putters in any way. All I'm saying is that you need a consistent stroke. Unless your setup and stroke (and you are able to read greens decently) are solid, making putts will always be a challenge, no matter what wrench you use.

And it's easier to have a consistent stroke when you know that you can aim your putter and don't have to block your putts the same amount or flip the toe over at just the right time.

It's really about as simple as that.

P.S. If you miss a putt with a putter that you can't aim, you're right it's your fault: for using a putter that doesn't fit you.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

If I miss a putt, it is not the putter's fault.  It is mine.

All I'm saying is that you need a consistent stroke. Unless your setup and stroke (and you are able to read greens decently) are solid, making putts will always be a challenge, no matter what wrench you use.

1. It could be the putter's fault because it's not fit to how you aim, in addition to other factors.

2. I stated most of your second para in my post.

3. See the post above mine.

Good luck.

[Harmonious]

Mr. Desmond: I'm glad you enjoy your Edel putter.  I enjoy my Yes! putter. You are confident yours fits you perfectly. I am confident that I can make a lot of putts with mine. Win-Win!

[SVTGolfer]

Buy a belly putter… iacas doesn't like them, so it should work perfectly!! Hahaha

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

Buy a belly putter… iacas doesn't like them, so it should work perfectly!! Hahaha

Or even better, an Edel belly putter.

[SVTGolfer]

MOST amateur golfers overlook getting fitted for a putter. Its extremely important and invaluable if you ask me. I was once one of those putter "collectors" and they happened to be the $300 Scotty Camerons too… Haha, ive since become a little wiser and frugal and invested more of my money in lessons, rather than equipment. Ive also sold off all of my Scotty Cameron putters except the one that I was fitted to. Until you figure out if you need a heavy weighted putter or a center shaft or toe balance or face ballanced putter you have no clue what type of putter will actually work for you. Once I did, it changed my game forever! I literally dropped about 5-8 strokes a round off my game.

I game a Nike Method because I love how solid the ball comes off the face. It rolls true, and my distance control is locked in. My "$300" Scotty Cameron is actually my backup putter… Its also for sale... Hahaha

PRICE should have nothing to do with choosing a putter. You go for feel. PERIOD!!

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Mr. Desmond: I'm glad you enjoy your Edel putter.  I enjoy my Yes! putter. You are confident yours fits you perfectly. I am confident that I can make a lot of putts with mine. Win-Win!

I played a Yes! Putter, in fact, I had two Yes! Putters when they first came out years ago.

If you don't hit the sweet spot, it will try to keep the ball on line, but you lose a lot of energy - a lot. Of course, at that time, I had a different stroke and grip. Still, that was my issue with the Yes!

Bobby Grace actually has the best technology on just off the sweet spot strikes - he's tried a lot of different technology over the years with the face. Just fyi for everyone.

And fyi for comparison purposes, I've owned Camerons since the mid-90s (before TItleist and after), Odyssey, Stix (?), Plop, Ping, Mizuno, David Mills Handmades, Callaway, Bobby Grace, Never Compromise, Yes!, 350 Milled, Titleist Bullseye (Reuter), MacGregor (Bobby Grace), Bettinardi Limited Editions, Seemore, etc. And now, Edel. (That's enough! ) (for now)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Mr. Desmond: I'm glad you enjoy your Edel putter.

Pfffft.

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

Buy a belly putter… iacas doesn't like them, so it should work perfectly!! Hahaha

Good to see that your fascination with me continues. Unfortunately you're wrong on this. Though I think that anchoring should be illegal, so long as they're legal, belly putters are great, particularly as training aids. We have several at our downtown facility, and have fit several people into belly putters, have training aids that turn your putter into a belly putter, etc.

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

MOST amateur golfers overlook getting fitted for a putter. Its extremely important and invaluable if you ask me.

Until you figure out if you need a heavy weighted putter or a center shaft or toe balance or face ballanced putter you have no clue what type of putter will actually work for you.

I'm glad that you agree with the benefits of being fit for a putter, even if you seem to vary quite a bit on the "how." What I mean by that is that things like "toe hang" is simply another compensation. Logically, a putter with "toe hang" will leave the face more open because it's tougher to get the toe going - there's a higher MOI about the shaft and the twisting is difficult. The heavier toe lags behind. It's a great fix for someone who tends to aim left.

But why does Tiger, who aims right, like toe hang? Because Tiger likes to feel himself applying actual twisting force to get the toe to "release." He may think it helps with his timing more or something (notice how poorly he putts when he doesn't have much time to practice his putting).

That's why sometimes switching putters leads to a boost in putting performance. Suppose you aim a bit right and you're blocking putts farther right because your putter has a lot of toe hang and you're not actively rolling the clubface around the shaft enough. So you switch to a mallet with less toe hang, just to make up an example, and the face doesn't hang open, so the active force you apply to close the clubface actually has you putting pretty well and pulling all of your putts slightly from your right-aim bias. That lasts a month or two until you start to overdo it and now you're pulling putts. Eventually you go back to your big toe-hang putter so you can slow down your rate of closure. You're just trading compensations for equipment based fixes rather than buying a putter that fits your aim and pace control and building a stroke with no compensations.

The thing is, you shouldn't ever really rotate the shaft around itself (a small amount happens somewhat often in even the best strokes, though SAM PuttLab will dock points for it). The face should stay square to the arc on which it's swung. Toe hang only matters to people who consciously or purposefully rotate the putter around the shaft as part of their stroke.

Every putter we've fit with an Edel has become a better putter WITH a better stroke (as measured by SAM PuttLab's extensive data collection). That's as true of the good putters as it is of the poor ones. As going from an 18 to a 16 is easier than going from a 2 to scratch, the poorer putters improve more, but nobody gets worse or even stays the same once they've adjusted to the putter (as previously written, up to the first 100 strokes made with the old compensations can be poorer).

We don't sell Edel putters because we make much money off them. We sell them because we like to make our customers happy and we want to do all we can to help them play better golf, because playing better golf makes people's lives better.

[k-troop]

Erik:  I'm intrigued by Edel putters.

I agree with you that the putter face should not twist, but rather should be square throughout the arc.  I believe this is why I migrated to a center-shafted mallet putter over the years.  (I'm not a chronic putter flipper, BTW.)  Over the years I gradually found that center-shaft putters give me the best chance of keeping the putter square throughout the line, which gives me the best chance of making the 10 footers.  I eventually settled on the 2-ball center shaft, which really gives me the best alignment and impact results.  I'm putting better now than I did when I was in highschool or college, playing/practicing 5 or more times a week.

I don't claim to be a great putter, but I do consider putting to be one of my strengths.  That certainly was not so a few years ago.  I am intrigued by the fitting process, and would not be opposed to spending $350 on a putter that will really improve my putting.  More consistency would be great, and really knowing where I hit the ball would be invaluable.  (My primary putting flaw is in reading greens, and I believe that I read greens poorly because I don't get good feedback on my reads, which means I don't learn as much as I need to from each putt.)

I notice none of the Edel putters (on the website) are center shafted.  I always thought that there were two acceptable putting styles:  toe release, and square-to-square.  Heel shafted putters were made for toe-release putting styles (most players) and center shaft for square-to-square putters.  Clearly I'm wrong.

Or I don't understand.  Help me understand.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

I notice none of the Edel putters (on the website) are center shafted.

There are two ways to have a center-shafted putter. One is to make the shaft actually go through the center of the putter face. The other is to attach the hosel at the heel but orient it in such a way that the shaft would project through the center of the face. They achieve the same effect from a balance perspective, and allow Edel to have six of the same heads to fit anyone . The Edel hosels that do this are called the "F" hosels. The shaft attaches to the inside and on an angle, and there's no offset.

Simpler question answered first, let's move on...

Originally Posted by k-troop

I agree with you that the putter face should not twist, but rather should be square throughout the arc.  I believe this is why I migrated to a center-shafted mallet putter over the years.  (I'm not a chronic putter flipper, BTW.)  Over the years I gradually found that center-shaft putters give me the best chance of keeping the putter square throughout the line, which gives me the best chance of making the 10 footers.  I eventually settled on the 2-ball center shaft, which really gives me the best alignment and impact results.  I'm putting better now than I did when I was in highschool or college, playing/practicing 5 or more times a week.

Your irons don't excessively twist in the first foot or two of your backswing, and they're far from center-shafted, right? The truth is that there's no real "twisting" at all (or shouldn't be) and the balance of the putter has almost no effect on that. I can putt with anything and make the same stroke because my putter shaft doesn't "twist" much at all - it simply stays square to the arc (and the arc itself is not severe - it's very shallow).

Originally Posted by k-troop

I don't claim to be a great putter, but I do consider putting to be one of my strengths.  That certainly was not so a few years ago.  I am intrigued by the fitting process, and would not be opposed to spending $350 on a putter that will really improve my putting.  More consistency would be great, and really knowing where I hit the ball would be invaluable.  (My primary putting flaw is in reading greens, and I believe that I read greens poorly because I don't get good feedback on my reads, which means I don't learn as much as I need to from each putt.)

I'd recommend AimPoint for learning green reading, but I will also say that you're correct. See the " Aim Bias and Putting Geometry " thread. If you mis-align your putter or tend to pull or push putts, you'll build in compensations that account for that, and it will affect your reads or your perceived reads. This happens frequently when I play golf with a guy who aims left:

1. Guy reads the putt as one cup to the left.
2. I tell him the read is 14 inches.
3. He says "no way, watch this!"
4. He aims 18 inches left and hits his putt on his line.
5. He misses just high and says "see, I played a cup and it wasn't even that much!"

Baffles me that he doesn't notice his ball started 18 inches out, or at least a lot more than 4, but he simply doesn't see it that way. I've discovered that it may be because he "hit his line" and he kept his head down and really only looked up when the ball was six feet from the cup, perhaps.

But anyway, you're right that you can feel like you hit your lines but your aim bias can mess with your green reading.

So again, here's how an Edel fitting would go.

1. You'd first aim your putter (if you use the line on the ball, you'd do that throughout, too). They pull the ball away and see where the laser bounces off the putter face. This helps with both a good loft as well as aim.
2. You'd be put through a series of different putter configurations - loft, lie, hosel shape, offset amount, head shape, line/dot configuration, shaft length, etc. until you find one that you can aim at the center of the hole every time and which has an appropriate amount of loft.
3. You'd be speed tested and head weight, mid-point weight, and counter-weights would be added until you could stop the ball on a string from 15 feet with surprising consistency. You'll be amazed at how poorly you'll do this with bad weighting.

In the end you'll have a putter you can both aim and control in terms of speed. Everyone perceives these things differently. If you aim right and pull every putt, you'll pull your first few with your Edel putter, too, because that's what you've always done. But you'll adjust, and you can adjust knowing with confidence that you can align your putter. It removes a variable. If you can align your putter, your stroke is off. Right now, you may just align your putter poorly, so do you fix that or do you fix the stroke? Too many variables.

Originally Posted by k-troop

I notice none of the Edel putters (on the website) are center shafted.  I always thought that there were two acceptable putting styles:  toe release, and square-to-square.  Heel shafted putters were made for toe-release putting styles (most players) and center shaft for square-to-square putters.  Clearly I'm wrong.

Virtually nobody putts square to square. Nobody really does on putts outside of 10-20 feet. There was a recent thread on this where even an adamant SBST (straight back straight through) putter found that he had a slight arc. Everyone has a slight arc. Emphasis on "slight" being proper - people making sharp circles aren't putting properly either. Just as with the full swing, the clubhead travels back, up, and IN on the backswing.

So no, there's no truth to that. Great marketing and a great way to sell more putters, but no, no real truth to it. Scotty Cameron is a big proponent that everyone putts on an arc, yet he sells some minimal toe-hang putters and some center-shafted models. Why? Because people will buy them.

Get fitted. If nothing else just pay the fitting fee and learn how you aim your putter and what kind of putter shape and configuration you CAN aim. I guarantee you, though, if you show up and you're shown that you can't aim your putter inside the hole from six feet, it's going to be tough to continue trusting that putter or the stroke you make with it, so be prepared if you take my advice on getting a fitting. :)