Ryan Braun Innocent

[jhwmusic]

Yeah...nothing really changed but he tested off the charts. Doesn't really make sense. But like you said, who knows.

[x129]

Why would the numbers change? After all it isn't like he started doping last year. Probably started in high school...... And yeah I know that makes me a total cynic.

Originally Posted by DarkPrince

I think one thing that people did make a good point of was that his numbers haven't really gotten out of control. He's stayed pretty consistent. He isn't exactly going insane on the home runs or breaking crazy records, but who knows.

[jhwmusic]

Why would the numbers change? After all it isn't like he started doping last year. Probably started in high school...... And yeah I know that makes me a total cynic.

Started in high school? You do know the muscle mass and strength goes away when you stop working out that much....which is what steroids do...they allow you to work out more by recovering faster. Look at Barry bonds....he looks like he has lost 50 pounds since the whole scandal started...most of which is in head size. Ha. You don't just shoot up before the game and start hitting home runs. And Braun has been tested like 30 times since he was drafted.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Because someone may be deemed not guilty on a technicality doesn't mean they didn't commit the crime it just means there wasn't enough evidence to prove the case.  Based on the CBA, they had to have reason to believe he was using PEDS in order to request the test in the first place.

If 85 is your birth year you're probably not old enough to remember OJ and Nicole Brown Simpson.

Not really my point... I think that more than likely he did do it.  My point is that  the entire testing process from collection up though the appeal process is suppose to be confidential.  In Braun's case the public should know nothing.  We shouldn't know that he was tested, that he tested positive, that he appealed or that he won the appeal.  The only time we should hear some thing is if the player either tests positive and doesn't appeal or they appeal the result but lose; at that point they've got to be suspended and obviously what has happened will be known.

[DarkPrince]

According to a radio interview with someone "familiar" with the case, Braun and his team proved and replicated results that showed that the time period spent at the collectors house caused the sample to be contaminated and/or skewed. Take it with a grain of salt, but technically if they proved that it was contaminated or altered before the lab tested it, then the lab shouldn't have tested it in the first place as a true sample and should have required a new sample be taken.  Its kind of the most...compelling case I've read so far, but still don't know how much is heresay since nothing has technically been officially released.

[x129]

I did say I was a cynic. I have no idea if he did steroids but if he did he easily could have been doing them since high school (something like 5% of male HS athletes use them) or the minors. Obviously since he didn't stop using them or working out, he isn't going to lose the benefits.  I am guessing Barry hasn't touched a weight since he retired. As far as being test 30 times, how many times do you think Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Jan Ulrich, Marion Jones, Randy Barnes, Justin Gatlin,  Alvin&Calvin; Harrison, Dennis Mitchel, Tim Montgomery tested negative over there careers? Some of them were tested 100's of times with negative results. A couple of them have even admitted (i.e. the only way to know 100% if some was a doper) to doing the crime. And a the time of the positive test pretty much all of them pointed that 2 weeks earlier they tested negative so it must be a bad sample or that some has spiked it to get them.  Again 20+ years of watching T&F;, Cycling, and pretty much any sport that put in comprehensive drug testing will make you a cynic about how effective drug testing really is.   Yes it catches people but if it takes 8+ years to get them, you have to figure a lot of drug cheats go their whole career without getting caught.

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

Started in high school? You do know the muscle mass and strength goes away when you stop working out that much....which is what steroids do...they allow you to work out more by recovering faster. Look at Barry bonds....he looks like he has lost 50 pounds since the whole scandal started...most of which is in head size. Ha. You don't just shoot up before the game and start hitting home runs. And Braun has been tested like 30 times since he was drafted.

[newtogolf]

I got your point now, thanks.  My understanding is that before MLB can request a drug test during the season they must have reasonable belief that the player is using some sort of PED's.  If MLB wants a player to submit to a test, the team management, union reps and MLB commission reps must meet and request a test that has to be conducted within 24-48 hours of the meeting.  When you have that many people involved it's tough to keep the information from leaking.  Each rep has motive for leaking information about the test so it's hard to assign blame.  If testing was done randomly, and didn't require a big meeting then it wouldn't be a major news story.

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Not really my point... I think that more than likely he did do it.  My point is that  the entire testing process from collection up though the appeal process is suppose to be confidential.  In Braun's case the public should know nothing.  We shouldn't know that he was tested, that he tested positive, that he appealed or that he won the appeal.  The only time we should hear some thing is if the player either tests positive and doesn't appeal or they appeal the result but lose; at that point they've got to be suspended and obviously what has happened will be known.

[jhwmusic]

[VIDEO][/VIDEO][quote name="x129" url="/t/55903/ryan-braun-innocent/18#post_683015"]

I did say I was a cynic. I have no idea if he did steroids but if he did he easily could have been doing them since high school (something like 5% of male HS athletes use them) or the minors. Obviously since he didn't stop using them or working out, he isn't going to lose the benefits.  I am guessing Barry hasn't touched a weight since he retired. As far as being test 30 times, how many times do you think Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Jan Ulrich, Marion Jones, Randy Barnes, Justin Gatlin,  Alvin&Calvin; Harrison, Dennis Mitchel, Tim Montgomery tested negative over there careers? Some of them were tested 100's of times with negative results. A couple of them have even admitted (i.e. the only way to know 100% if some was a doper) to doing the crime. And a the time of the positive test pretty much all of them pointed that 2 weeks earlier they tested negative so it must be a bad sample or that some has spiked it to get them.  Again 20+ years of watching T&F;, Cycling, and pretty much any sport that put in comprehensive drug testing will make you a cynic about how effective drug testing really is.   Yes it catches people but if it takes 8+ years to get them, you have to figure a lot of drug cheats go their whole career without getting caught.

[/quote] And that's exactly why cycling is known to be one the most corrupt sports there is. Didn't their president or commissioner or whatever just step down because of all of the doping scandals and cover ups? And he would most definitely lose the benefits if he stopped using. Look at Sammy Sosa...when the Mitchell report came out and people were getting caught left and right. He lost like 30 pounds over a summer and had significantly less power. His body started falling apart and he couldn't stay healthy. Peds help you recover...you don't inject and all of a sudden look like Arnold schwarzegger. It allows you to work out more without needing as much rest. Hence why cyclists use them. Sammy Sosa just didn't caught....yet.

[jhwmusic]

Oh yeah...and steroids turn you white!

And this is Sammy's dog..."Slugger"

It kills me to make fun of Sammy cuz I was at a lot of those games when he had us all standing up and cheering.  But he is as guilty as OJ!

[newtogolf]

It wasn't until Bonds threatened Ruth's and Aaron's career home run records that MLB and congress got interested in getting steroids out of baseball.  I remember after the strike it was the single season home run record race that brought fans back to baseball and I didn't hear anyone complaining about PEDs then.   Sosa, Bonds, McGwire and a juiced up ball saved baseball and now these same guys are considered villians.

[x129]

Sure you lose the benefits but what is your point? It isn't like Braun (if guilty) couldn't have used steroids for 8+ years (obviously cycling on and off). We have no way of knowing. PEDs can also do a lot of stuff. Steroids help you recover, EPO helps you recover and increases performance, stimulates give an instant boost for power activities, and so on. You mix and match based on your needs.

And sure cycling and t&f; were loaded with dopers. Guess what? So is/was baseball.  Look at the mitchel report. Minor amounts of testing (i.e. a fraction of what a sport that is serious about cleaning up its act does) caught 7% of the people using steroids.  Go down the list of stars from the late 90s to 2000s and make a list of the ones that didn't test postive or have creditable allegations evidence against them. It is a depressingly small list. And lets not even talk about the use of amphentamines (that would get you banned in most sports just like steroids). And then if you get caught the penalties in baseball are a joke. 40 games? In most olympic sports he would have gotten 2 years. But baseball doesn't really care. They want to look clean to avoid the scrunity but that is about it as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

And that's exactly why cycling is known to be one the most corrupt sports there is. Didn't their president or commissioner or whatever just step down because of all of the doping scandals and cover ups?

And he would most definitely lose the benefits if he stopped using. Look at Sammy Sosa...when the Mitchell report came out and people were getting caught left and right. He lost like 30 pounds over a summer and had significantly less power. His body started falling apart and he couldn't stay healthy. Peds help you recover...you don't inject and all of a sudden look like Arnold schwarzegger. It allows you to work out more without needing as much rest. Hence why cyclists use them. Sammy Sosa just didn't caught....yet.

[DarkPrince]

Originally Posted by x129

...And then if you get caught the penalties in baseball are a joke. 40 games? In most olympic sports he would have gotten 2 years. But baseball doesn't really care. They want to look clean to avoid the scrunity but that is about it as far as I can tell.

I had that discussion with my boss today. I told him 50 games is nothing, most wprldwide sports would ban you for 2 years even, 3 months is nothing. So his retort was that if the NFL doesn't do it or give a crap (cuz to him its the only real sport that counts since its the most watched in the US) then everyone else should follow suit. I told him cycling, golf, soccer, olympics...etc all require a ban from all levels of professional competition if you get caught, 50 days is crap. Manny Ramirez would be banned for life likely after 2 positive tests.

[jhwmusic]

It wasn't until Bonds threatened Ruth's and Aaron's career home run records that MLB and congress got interested in getting steroids out of baseball.  I remember after the strike it was the single season home run record race that brought fans back to baseball and I didn't hear anyone complaining about PEDs then.   Sosa, Bonds, McGwire and a juiced up ball saved baseball and now these same guys are considered villians.

[quote name="x129" url="/t/55903/ryan-braun-innocent/18#post_683168"]

Sure you lose the benefits but what is your point? It isn't like Braun (if guilty) couldn't have used steroids for 8+ years (obviously cycling on and off). We have no way of knowing. PEDs can also do a lot of stuff. Steroids help you recover, EPO helps you recover and increases performance, stimulates give an instant boost for power activities, and so on. You mix and match based on your needs.

And sure cycling and t&f; were loaded with dopers. Guess what? So is/was baseball.  Look at the mitchel report. Minor amounts of testing (i.e. a fraction of what a sport that is serious about cleaning up its act does) caught 7% of the people using steroids.  Go down the list of stars from the late 90s to 2000s and make a list of the ones that didn't test postive or have creditable allegations evidence against them. It is a depressingly small list. And lets not even talk about the use of amphentamines (that would get you banned in most sports just like steroids). And then if you get caught the penalties in baseball are a joke. 40 games? In most olympic sports he would have gotten 2 years. But baseball doesn't really care. They want to look clean to avoid the scrunity but that is about it as far as I can tell.

[/quote][quote name="DarkPrince" url="/t/55903/ryan-braun-innocent/18#post_683212"]

I had that discussion with my boss today. I told him 50 games is nothing, most wprldwide sports would ban you for 2 years even, 3 months is nothing. So his retort was that if the NFL doesn't do it or give a crap (cuz to him its the only real sport that counts since its the most watched in the US) then everyone else should follow suit. I told him cycling, golf, soccer, olympics...etc all require a ban from all levels of professional competition if you get caught, 50 days is crap. Manny Ramirez would be banned for life likely after 2 positive tests.

[/quote] Newtogolf, I 1000% agree with you. Not that I promote steroids but the year of the Sosa vs McGuire home run race was THE best thing that happened to baseball. Bonds just got the sloppy seconds of that few years. He may have the record but that season Sammy and mark had was truly unbelievablemon so many levels. Baseball was in some serious bad shape prior. And to be honest, who cares if they were doing steroids....as time passes all athletes have their advantages. Pitchers didn't throw as hard back in the day, players are juiced up today. I know that's raw, but it's the truth. it's entertainment. I'm gonna hear it I know. Bring it! X129, what is my point? I'm trying to figure out the same from you. You are basically coming upi with a scenario in which Braun could have been doing peds since he was 14 just to debate something. He came into the league at the pinacle of the steroid scandal, when people where tested more than ever. And he just so happens to test positive for 3x higher levels than anyone has ever benn tested positive for. And that doesn't seem weird to you at all? I'm a cubs fan, so it was probably one of my own who was responsible...I just said I believe him. Manny Rameriz was just so dumb that he he actually thought he would get away with it. He's really that stupid i think.

[x129]

The point was you wouldn't expect to see a performance increase from Braun using steroids in his stats. Why? Because it is likely he was using them all along.  He could have started in HS. He could have started in college (can't remember if he went). He could have started in the minors. He could have started his first year in the majors. And he could have started after hitting his career stride. It is only in the last case you where you would expect to see a jump in the stats.  Now if his HR total drops 30% this year (or he gets injured in august) it is going to look bad circumstantially but that really doesn't prove much either.

It was 2x higher but there are zero details given. If you took the drug and immediately did the test would you get that result? My understanding (mainly from Floyd Landis trial) is that synthetic testorene breaks down really fast which is why it is relatively popular.. Maybe testing with in a hour of injection instead of 8 would be enough to get this result. Or maybe Braun decided to go for a double.  Or maybe it is medically impossible to get this high (which you would think his lawyers would have brought up). But Braun defense wasn't that the test was flawed. It was that a procedural error (which wouldn't be an error under WADA) occurred. That doesn't inspire confidence in me.  Now he definitely could be innocent (do enough tests and you will get false positives) but the way this worked it sure doesn't feel that way.  And yeah steroids in your sport really sucks the fun out of it,

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

X129, what is my point? I'm trying to figure out the same from you. You are basically coming upi with a scenario in which Braun could have been doing peds since he was 14 just to debate something. He came into the league at the pinacle of the steroid scandal, when people where tested more than ever. And he just so happens to test positive for 3x higher levels than anyone has ever benn tested positive for. And that doesn't seem weird to you at all? I'm a cubs fan, so it was probably one of my own who was responsible...I just said I believe him. Manny Rameriz was just so dumb that he he actually thought he would get away with it. He's really that stupid i think.

[DarkPrince]

There's one other major factor that will influence Braun's hitting percentages.  The lack of Prince Fielder directly following him in the batting order. Pitchers no longer have to choose between pitching to Braun or Fielder.

[x129]

I thought line up protection was pretty much determined to be a myth statically but I only follow baseball stats really casually (i.e. I read moneyball and couple other books).

Originally Posted by DarkPrince

There's one other major factor that will influence Braun's hitting percentages.  The lack of Prince Fielder directly following him in the batting order. Pitchers no longer have to choose between pitching to Braun or Fielder.

[DarkPrince]

Originally Posted by x129

I thought line up protection was pretty much determined to be a myth statically but I only follow baseball stats really casually (i.e. I read moneyball and couple other books).

I don't know a whole lot about it, this is just something my friends who watch baseball/follow it religiously tell me. Pitchers used to have to decide to either throw to Braun and try and get him out to keep him off base, or just walk him and try to play off fielder for a double play. To me it doesn't make much sense since at that level any player likely has the ability and power to hit a home run so no matter who you pitch to, it's still a plausible outcome that someone will hit one. But I also am starting to understand that certain players have butter zones that they get the most hits out of and conversely they have some pitches they just can't seem to be able to hit be it mentally or physically.  The idea makes sense on paper that with 2 power hitters back to back you have to choose to throw or just walk, but it also seems kind of weak.  I must admit that the 9 or so games I went to last year, if Braun got on base, a lot of times they just walked Fielder instead of giving him the chance, but the reliever or closer would go for it instead.

[jamo]

I think statistically it lineup protection has been disproven, but that does't mean there isn't a mental roadblock to pitching to some of the best hitters in the league back to back, and it does have an effect on walks.