Lift, clean and place

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

So for you only competition scores are accepted? Odd.

Yep, I'm pretty sure all CONGU is the same. There's a small exception of "supplementary" cards designed to allow people to keep their handicaps active even if they haven't played enough tournaments, but these still have to be declared before you start and marked by a member.

So harder to sandbag, but it does make your handicap change slowly. I just put my last 20 rounds (social and competition) into a USGA calculator and it came back with 11.5 instead of my current 14.5.

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Interesting.  Unlike the states, I'm trying to think when I've seen an event on your side of the pond where the ball is not played down.  Seems like no matter what the weather is for the Open, there would never have been lift, clean, and place.  Having said that I'm a little naive concerning whether in the UK..  I guess your winter months are much more wet than summer, and your grass does go dormant or at least doesn't grow much .

I seem to remember reading somewhere that competitions played with lift, clean and place can only be valid during a time period specified by the local authority. So in summer if for some reason lift, clean and place was used during a competition that competition would then be non-qualifying and wouldn't count towards handicaps.

And while the weather at The Open may sometimes look like winter it's actually played during the summer and so the course shouldn't ever really be in a state where lift, clean and place would be necessary. Plus it's played on links courses which are nearly always have very good drainage and are unlikely to be affected by anything less than snow.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Mordan

Yep, I'm pretty sure all CONGU is the same. There's a small exception of "supplementary" cards designed to allow people to keep their handicaps active even if they haven't played enough tournaments, but these still have to be declared before you start and marked by a member.

So harder to sandbag, but it does make your handicap change slowly. I just put my last 20 rounds (social and competition) into a USGA calculator and it came back with 11.5 instead of my current 14.5.

I'm not familiar with CONGU anymore as here in Finland we stopped using it in the 90's and changed into EGA. I just wonder how different it could be regarding hcp rounds compared to EGA, which allows (and even encourages) social rounds to be played as hcp rounds as long as they are pre-announced. Besides, it is the player's responsibility to maintain his/her hcp regardless of the system used. We tend to call it sandbagging when a player deliberately fails to do so...

Originally Posted by Mordan

I seem to remember reading somewhere that competitions played with lift, clean and place can only be valid during a time period specified by the local authority. So in summer if for some reason lift, clean and place was used during a competition that competition would then be non-qualifying and wouldn't count towards handicaps.

In EGA system LC&P; does not invalidate any hcp round (but a course record is invalidated). Again, is CONGU that much different from EGA? After all, EGA system was developed from CONGU, as far as I recollect.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

I'm not familiar with CONGU anymore as here in Finland we stopped using it in the 90's and changed into EGA. I just wonder how different it could be regarding hcp rounds compared to EGA, which allows (and even encourages) social rounds to be played as hcp rounds as long as they are pre-announced. Besides, it is the player's responsibility to maintain his/her hcp regardless of the system used. We tend to call it sandbagging when a player deliberately fails to do so...

In EGA system LC&P; does not invalidate any hcp round (but a course record is invalidated). Again, is CONGU that much different from EGA? After all, EGA system was developed from CONGU, as far as I recollect.

The advantage of including social rounds in your handicap is that you are going to have more rounds included in your handicap calculation. At least for the majority of golfers who would play at least a few social rounds for each competition round they play. The more rounds (and the more recent those rounds are) the more accurate your handicap should be.

The advantage of including only competition rounds is that you maintain much tighter control over the rounds that are included. Both from the point of view of a commitee overseeing the competition, and a marker overseeing your card. As you say, in the end it's up to the individual to maintain their handicap, but this way it's harder for the less than scrupulous golfer to sandbag.

As I said bofore, the USGA system would produce a more accurate handicap for me right now, because there haven't been enough competitions for me to get in enough rounds for my handicap to reflect where my golf is at right now. But for the majority of golfers at my club whose game doesn't really change (other than adding 10 yards with a new driver each season), it seems to work quite well.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Interesting.  Unlike the states, I'm trying to think when I've seen an event on your side of the pond where the ball is not played down.  Seems like no matter what the weather is for the Open, there would never have been lift, clean, and place.  Having said that I'm a little naive concerning whether in the UK..  I guess your winter months are much more wet than summer, and your grass does go dormant or at least doesn't grow much .

I'm pretty sure that the Old Course requires mats on the fairways during the off-season, which I seem to recall being a pretty big chunk of the year.

[1par2win]

Originally Posted by zeg

I'm pretty sure that the Old Course requires mats on the fairways during the off-season, which I seem to recall being a pretty big chunk of the year.

Whoa! I don't think I understand this right. What exactly are "mats on the fairways"?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by 1par2win

Whoa! I don't think I understand this right. What exactly are "mats on the fairways"?

http://www.standrews.org.uk/Playing-golf-in-St-Andrews/Mats.aspx

[1par2win]

Originally Posted by Mordan

http://www.standrews.org.uk/Playing-golf-in-St-Andrews/Mats.aspx

Wow, I have never heard of that. Thanks for the info!

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by QuazerSKITS

We also just had a handicap review when the handicap committee look at the scores over the last 6 months and adjust your handicap according. Do you have this at your club?

This is a compulsory requirement of the CONGU system. The review is annual and is to be done at the end of the calendar year.

The handicapping software has a variety of reports that help the committee with the review.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Mordan

The advantage of including social rounds in your handicap is that you are going to have more rounds included in your handicap calculation. At least for the majority of golfers who would play at least a few social rounds for each competition round they play. The more rounds (and the more recent those rounds are) the more accurate your handicap should be.

The advantage of including only competition rounds is that you maintain much tighter control over the rounds that are included. Both from the point of view of a commitee overseeing the competition, and a marker overseeing your card. As you say, in the end it's up to the individual to maintain their handicap, but this way it's harder for the less than scrupulous golfer to sandbag.

As I said bofore, the USGA system would produce a more accurate handicap for me right now, because there haven't been enough competitions for me to get in enough rounds for my handicap to reflect where my golf is at right now. But for the majority of golfers at my club whose game doesn't really change (other than adding 10 yards with a new driver each season), it seems to work quite well.

The CONGU and EGA systems are designed specifically for competition play. The player's handicap is intended to show his potential ability in competition not his current social golf standard.

EGA is virtually identical to CONGU

Both organisations recognised that social golf takes many forms and that many groups or societies had their own internal methods of adjusting handicaps for their social BB play.

eg lose one stroke for every £ won in the sweep or winners/runners-up lose strokes, losers gain strokes.

But of course you don't need competitions to maintain or improve your handicap. That is what Supplementary Scores are for. Get a marker, register your entry, play and record your score and that's it.

[Mordan]

I've just received an email from the club stating that "Winter Rules/Preferred Lies" will no longer apply from 1 April.

Considering we've had nearly two weeks of lovely weather, and the course and greens are as firm as they are in mid-summer it seems they bring the rule into play, and rescind it purely based on dates and nothing to do with the course. From my understanding this goes against the recommended rules but it seems the club thinks practicality wins out over strict adherence.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

So for you only competition scores are accepted? Odd.

Not that odd. The CONGU and EGA systems are specifically about a player's potential play in competition.

It has been recognised that many social groups in clubs and societies in and out of clubs, have their own 'handicaps' and adjust for all sorts of reasons. A very common one is a reduction (or increase) depending on the amount of money won (or lost) in the preceding month say.

It was also recognised that players holidaying in eg Spain, Portugal or Florida were coming back with scores that had nothing to do with the scores attainable in UK weather conditions.

Social golf was skewing competition results.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Mordan

I've just received an email from the club stating that "Winter Rules/Preferred Lies" will no longer apply from 1 April.

Considering we've had nearly two weeks of lovely weather, and the course and greens are as firm as they are in mid-summer it seems they bring the rule into play, and rescind it purely based on dates and nothing to do with the course. From my understanding this goes against the recommended rules but it seems the club thinks practicality wins out over strict adherence.

CONGU specify that Preferred Lies may be in operation from 1 Oct to 30 Apr when Qualifying Competitions are being played, without the authority of the County. Outside this time, permission has to be sought.

Many Clubs simply take this as a blanket rule that PLs must apply during this time and are too lazy to review their own course conditions.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Interesting.  Unlike the states, I'm trying to think when I've seen an event on your side of the pond where the ball is not played down.  Seems like no matter what the weather is for the Open, there would never have been lift, clean, and place.  Having said that I'm a little naive concerning whether in the UK..  I guess your winter months are much more wet than summer, and your grass does go dormant or at least doesn't grow much .

I think last years Scottish Open gave the pro's ball in hand. It was a new course and they lost a round to the rain. Typically sandy links drain very well so there is never a need unless the weather gets really ugly.

Also, I think there is (was?) a difference between the Euro Tour & PGA tour about the relief available, 6 inches in Europe & a club length on the PGA. I seem to remember someone running up 10+ penalty shots in a round on a co-sanctioned event in Asia because they were using the PGA rule when the Euro rule was in play.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

I think last years Scottish Open gave the pro's ball in hand. It was a new course and they lost a round to the rain. Typically sandy links drain very well so there is never a need unless the weather gets really ugly.

Also, I think there is (was?) a difference between the Euro Tour & PGA tour about the relief available, 6 inches in Europe & a club length on the PGA. I seem to remember someone running up 10+ penalty shots in a round on a co-sanctioned event in Asia because they were using the PGA rule when the Euro rule was in play.

October 31 -- Ryuji Imada’s Halloween mask must have fallen over his eyes at the Mission Hills Star Trophy golf tourney in China this trick-or-treat weekend. How else to explain his failure to read the local rules sheet that cost him 26 (!) penalty strokes on Saturday?

Lift, clean, and place . With the lift, clean, and place rule in effect on the Blackstone course, Imada figured he could a preferred lie within a club length of his ball’s landing spot. Only thing was, the event’s local rules did not employ the PGA Tour’s typical reg for dealing with wet conditions. Instead, they followed the Asian and European tours’ edict that players could place their balls within the length of a scorecard, according to GolfChannel.com.

Oops!

Fellow competitor Danny Lee told Imada of his mistake on the 12th hole. The culprit himself then let officials know of his error. Imada could not recreate each rules infraction but figured he’d made the mistake at least 13 times.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Trick or treat: Golfer Imada earns 26 penalty strokes for pre-Halloween miscue - National Golf | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/golf-in-national/trick-or-treat-golfer-imada-earns-26-penalty-strokes-for-pre-halloween-miscue#ixzz1qtWaluHB